Postmaster
Dark Side of the Camera
Swapable SATA hard disks of the shelf would be even better (and cheaper) than any cards.
Frank
Frank
The future of HVX200
- Thread starter der4
- Start date
Barry_Green
Moderator
Let's agree to disagree on that one. I'm no fan of hard disk recording; I'll put up with it for the sake of using DV Rack, but hard disk on a handheld unit? No thanks. Flash'll get bigger, faster, and cheaper as time goes on, it'll be the ideal recording medium and hard disk as a field recording solution is going to fade away.
Now, if solid state SATA disks were affordable enough, I'd be all over that idea, sure. I'm guessing the incredible volume of laptop sales will drive SATA SSDs to affordable prices in a few years ($4500 for 32GB is not exactly there yet, but $200 for 32GB would be phenomenal).
Barry_Green
Moderator
Again, compromise is part of the whole deal. You have to compromise somewhere, either in the features you get or the price tag you can afford.
The genius ideas behind Red was to recognize that the film market (which makes up much of DVXUser, etc) didn't even really need a video camera, they wanted a film replacement camera. So many things that the video camera industry requires (like three chips, SMPTE-compliant recording modes, broadcast compatibility, etc) didn't apply to them. They just had to deliver something that did what we wanted, not what the broadcast industry needs. The other manufacturers supply the broadcast industry and, as such, they try to graft us onto their existing business. Red didn't do that, they started from the ground up.
As such, they've designed a camera with little to no applicability to the broadcast industry. Some would view that as a massive compromise. We don't. Because at the same time, they designed a camera that has perfect applicability to the film/commercial industry. And that's the thing -- while there's a compromise in all design, the compromise you're asked to make may not sway your decision in the slightest. You pick what you can or can't live with and you go from there.
More likely it's that our segment of the market is too small to justify a dedicated product like this. Put it in perspective: Arri has sold maybe 1,000 35mm film cameras in its existence. Red has received about 3,000 reservations so far, all told. Panasonic has sold about 2,000 HVX200s *per month* for the last two years.
So, hey, Panasonic, want to design a film-only camera and sell 100 per month? Or would you rather spend that same time and energy and r&d to make a product that'll sell 2,000 per month? Easy answer for them. The way it is, they get their broadcast sales and they get our sales too, because they've built an all-in-one tool. It just doesn't do absolutely everything we could dream of. But it does it better than anything else on the market at its price point.
I totally reject this line of thinking in today's marketplace. 10 years ago, maybe. But now? No way. These companies design the best product they can at the price point they've been given, and if the bigger products can't compete, they're doomed but the product evolution moves on. Look at the EX1 -- how many people are rushing out to buy a $28,000 1/2" F350 now that the $7790 EX1 is on the market? Sony cannibalized their own product line -- so what? That's evolution for you. If they "protected" their high end, we never would have seen advancement from, say, the BVW 600 of a decade ago.
These companies make the best product that they can at the price point they target, that they think they can sell the most of.
No idea -- I'm not a camera manufacturer.
Barry_Green
Moderator
As far as I know you are correct. No details of any type have been announced, only that it would be a professional camera, and that it would be designed by the Red company. No performance or cost details have been discussed by anyone from Red, AFAIK.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Wild speculation on my part, based on no solid info.
Barry_Green
Moderator
So, when you gonna design that cam, Barry? The "Green One" I'll buy it
Well, first I'll have to become a billionaire. Anyone want to buy a production company and book/dvd publishing business? Asking price: $1,000,000,000.00.
Then I'll have to find another Graeme Nattress, another Stuart English, another Jarred Land. Tough act to follow. Maybe Red'll just take the list and rubber-stamp it and put it in production for us?
I hope that RED will make this camera. I also think we should NOT hold back in our request for the perfect camera. Did Barry miss anything? Using SATA hard drives is not a good idea. I've had two hard drives go bad in the last three months.
Here's a question, if the HVX200 has sold 2,000 a month and continues to sell can the RED/Green camera concept do the same thing? One thing I like about RED is the direct purchase program. Panasonic/Sony etc. have major distribution channels established worldwide. But RED deals directly with the market. They know what we want and are trying to make it happen. Imagine if Panasonic etc. actually came on these threads and got involved in this particular post? Say they asked us what it is we want? That is what RED did. That is a great business model. Ask us the customers help you make us the camera WE NEED.
Here's a question, if the HVX200 has sold 2,000 a month and continues to sell can the RED/Green camera concept do the same thing? One thing I like about RED is the direct purchase program. Panasonic/Sony etc. have major distribution channels established worldwide. But RED deals directly with the market. They know what we want and are trying to make it happen. Imagine if Panasonic etc. actually came on these threads and got involved in this particular post? Say they asked us what it is we want? That is what RED did. That is a great business model. Ask us the customers help you make us the camera WE NEED.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
That's exactly what Panasonic did, when designing the original DVX100. They came on forums like DV-L and asked us what we wanted, and then they designed it, and even exceeded our expectations.
DC
Cinematographiliac
mikkowilson
Steadi-Guru
They did do it again.
The result?
...
A lot of the features of the HVX200 came directly from this community. Pretty much the only ones that didn't, were the ones that we couldn't imagine at the time.
The USA product manager for DVCPRO50/25 & the DVX100 & HVX200 cameras is a long time active member here on DVXuser.
- Mikko
Enjoyed your long post Barry. Some interesting things.
My 2c and to be frank, cameras have come such a long way this past five years I find it incredibly exciting. If Barrys camera were to come to fruition people would be talking about higher 3d resolutions just around the corner and people will be commenting on why they cant have that now and how long its going to take and why cant the camera manufacturers just get it right. Sadly this is a revolving door.
Seriously and I ve said this a few times recently, if my total shooting needs were to shoot a narrative in the hope of getting some attention in Hollywood. I would need nothing more than a DVX, a great story, solid sound, good direction and good acting - yeah I didnt mention anything lighting amongst other things. (IMO of course)
My 2c and to be frank, cameras have come such a long way this past five years I find it incredibly exciting. If Barrys camera were to come to fruition people would be talking about higher 3d resolutions just around the corner and people will be commenting on why they cant have that now and how long its going to take and why cant the camera manufacturers just get it right. Sadly this is a revolving door.
Seriously and I ve said this a few times recently, if my total shooting needs were to shoot a narrative in the hope of getting some attention in Hollywood. I would need nothing more than a DVX, a great story, solid sound, good direction and good acting - yeah I didnt mention anything lighting amongst other things. (IMO of course)
Mr. Barry Green,
I condensed your POST/IDEAS into a simple list. Here it is:
THE "GREEN ONE" PROGRESSIVE 2K CAMERA
____________________________________
1) Requested price around $5,000.00
2) 2.5K-res S35-sized CCD.A single-chip CCD using a Beyer pattern (2.5k, so by the time it's de-bayered it's a full 2K res) or a single-chip Foveon-style sensor
3) P&S Technik interchangeable lens mount system so you can use cheap Nikons or premium PL-mount Zeiss Ultra Primes, or a B4 ENG lens with on-body support for autoexposure and autofocus.
4) Record processed ready-to-air video to data files, raw sensor data, and cheap commodity media like CompactFlash or SD cards.
5) Genlock and timecode in/out and HDMI (unless the price tag can support D-SDI) and a cheap BNC composite feed.
6) Pure progressive recording (death to interlace once and for all!) and variable frame rates from 1 to 120. It should be able to record standard frame sizes such as SD 16:9, 720p, 1080p and full raw 2K.
7) An LCD with colored peaking and pixel-to-pixel on-board (and both at the same time.) User swappable scene files.
8) Uncompressed audio in 4 channels with 4 proper XLRs.
9) 10-bit 4:2:2 intraframe encoding at an adequate bandwidth, using an advanced codec like wavelet or AVC. And it should record to computer-editable formats -- MXF, AVI and Quicktime, your choice. And the codec it records to should be a freely distributable, nonproprietary system.
10) No proprietary standard codec for both Windows and OSX etc.
11) Gigabit ethernet data streaming of the raw signal
12) Two card slots for hot-swapping.
13) RAM slots, like in a desktop computer.
14) Cheap 4GB CompactFlash cards with RAM buffering feature.
15) Proper menu settings (black gamma, master gamma, 12-pole color matrix) as well as basic settings and advance settings.
16) Linux based system, with published open-source source code so end users can change/modify and improve the software, adding features. Make it modular/future proof.
__________________
Here are my thoughts:
1) I want this camera to be priced around what a HVX costs now.
2) 2K is definitely a must.
3) Interchangeable lens mount. (This is so important for DOF. We NEED this. No more workarounds.)
4) I'm a fan of Flash Media. (Though I'm not a fan of Hard Drives, some people are. Perhaps it could have a "laptop sized" hard drive striped raid inside so that it can do automatic backups without needing someone additional to download files on a set to a laptop. That way I can dump the files onto a computer at the end of the day. maybe the drives could be swappable as well for easy access. Just a thought.)
5) I agree.
6) Pure progressive is a GREAT IDEA.
7) LCD with "Critical Focus" for me is a MUST. Color accuracy is also important.
8) In addition to 4 channels of uncompressed audio I think it would be cool to have the option to put in a mini flash card that records a stereo audio channel at the same time. This same card could also capture the still pictures taken on set for press releases. Then I could give it to the WEB designer to work with while shooting. Or it could be used for "Wild" tracks. Again specifically for pictures or AIFF/WAV files. What do you think? Maybe we could assign it to one or the other or just have it do both.
9) 10-bit 4:2:2 intraframe encoding. This is so important for FX's. We need it.
10) I 100% agree.
11) I agree.
12) I agree.
13) RAM slots. This gives us lots of upgrade potential as well.
14) I definitely like the idea of low costs on flash cards.
15) I like the idea of both BASIC and ADVANCE options. That way the camera doesn't intimidate the newbie. I could also use the basic function for a quick shot under a time crunch.
16) Linux IS the best way to go.
OFF TOPIC: I would like to add that we should also have a new editing system designed that shares our favorite traits from FCP, Avid, and Sony Vegas but built for Linux. You know something that can handle all the formats, timecodes, and other things we want. That way everyone can have a killer system on this stable platform without the high cost of OSX. (Okay that is for another thread, but I think it would be cool.)
Anymore ideas, thoughts etc.?
I condensed your POST/IDEAS into a simple list. Here it is:
THE "GREEN ONE" PROGRESSIVE 2K CAMERA
____________________________________
1) Requested price around $5,000.00
2) 2.5K-res S35-sized CCD.A single-chip CCD using a Beyer pattern (2.5k, so by the time it's de-bayered it's a full 2K res) or a single-chip Foveon-style sensor
3) P&S Technik interchangeable lens mount system so you can use cheap Nikons or premium PL-mount Zeiss Ultra Primes, or a B4 ENG lens with on-body support for autoexposure and autofocus.
4) Record processed ready-to-air video to data files, raw sensor data, and cheap commodity media like CompactFlash or SD cards.
5) Genlock and timecode in/out and HDMI (unless the price tag can support D-SDI) and a cheap BNC composite feed.
6) Pure progressive recording (death to interlace once and for all!) and variable frame rates from 1 to 120. It should be able to record standard frame sizes such as SD 16:9, 720p, 1080p and full raw 2K.
7) An LCD with colored peaking and pixel-to-pixel on-board (and both at the same time.) User swappable scene files.
8) Uncompressed audio in 4 channels with 4 proper XLRs.
9) 10-bit 4:2:2 intraframe encoding at an adequate bandwidth, using an advanced codec like wavelet or AVC. And it should record to computer-editable formats -- MXF, AVI and Quicktime, your choice. And the codec it records to should be a freely distributable, nonproprietary system.
10) No proprietary standard codec for both Windows and OSX etc.
11) Gigabit ethernet data streaming of the raw signal
12) Two card slots for hot-swapping.
13) RAM slots, like in a desktop computer.
14) Cheap 4GB CompactFlash cards with RAM buffering feature.
15) Proper menu settings (black gamma, master gamma, 12-pole color matrix) as well as basic settings and advance settings.
16) Linux based system, with published open-source source code so end users can change/modify and improve the software, adding features. Make it modular/future proof.
__________________
Here are my thoughts:
1) I want this camera to be priced around what a HVX costs now.
2) 2K is definitely a must.
3) Interchangeable lens mount. (This is so important for DOF. We NEED this. No more workarounds.)
4) I'm a fan of Flash Media. (Though I'm not a fan of Hard Drives, some people are. Perhaps it could have a "laptop sized" hard drive striped raid inside so that it can do automatic backups without needing someone additional to download files on a set to a laptop. That way I can dump the files onto a computer at the end of the day. maybe the drives could be swappable as well for easy access. Just a thought.)
5) I agree.
6) Pure progressive is a GREAT IDEA.
7) LCD with "Critical Focus" for me is a MUST. Color accuracy is also important.
8) In addition to 4 channels of uncompressed audio I think it would be cool to have the option to put in a mini flash card that records a stereo audio channel at the same time. This same card could also capture the still pictures taken on set for press releases. Then I could give it to the WEB designer to work with while shooting. Or it could be used for "Wild" tracks. Again specifically for pictures or AIFF/WAV files. What do you think? Maybe we could assign it to one or the other or just have it do both.
9) 10-bit 4:2:2 intraframe encoding. This is so important for FX's. We need it.
10) I 100% agree.
11) I agree.
12) I agree.
13) RAM slots. This gives us lots of upgrade potential as well.
14) I definitely like the idea of low costs on flash cards.
15) I like the idea of both BASIC and ADVANCE options. That way the camera doesn't intimidate the newbie. I could also use the basic function for a quick shot under a time crunch.
16) Linux IS the best way to go.
OFF TOPIC: I would like to add that we should also have a new editing system designed that shares our favorite traits from FCP, Avid, and Sony Vegas but built for Linux. You know something that can handle all the formats, timecodes, and other things we want. That way everyone can have a killer system on this stable platform without the high cost of OSX. (Okay that is for another thread, but I think it would be cool.)
Anymore ideas, thoughts etc.?
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We will never be completely satisfied that is true. But as a filmmaker I am not completely happy with the HVX200 or the Sony HDCAM EX (Though I have not used the Sony yet. I want a better codec for FX's.) Here is why: I have a friend who creates film intermediate's in LA. He has done a lot of very well known "A" and "B" list movies. We have discussed this at great lengths. I have personally worked in Distribution, as a regular temp over a period of a couple years, at a MAJOR Studio in the Print Control office. The standard films in the theater project at approx the 2K resolution. Though HD resolution is close I would prefer 2K. Now obviously RED ONE is catering to this. When an indie filmmaker shoots a movie I want it to look the best it can. If you're a student, professional, whatever, you can save your pennies and buy it. If you want to create FX's with footage you can do it without limitations in keying etc. Who knows if your FX's are really good the studios could be amazed. If the studio wants to spend a ton of money on additional post work they won't be as limited by the color space of the camera. I know they would appreciate that.
If the studios want to put it direct to theaters it will be less grainy then a HD blow up. Also, with the proper codec and resolution TV stations like DISCOVERY will give the indie ultra low budget filmmaker a chance. Instead of restrictions like "We won't take it unless it was shot on..." And this same camera, as Barry pointed out, could be used to make a living (example: Event Videographers.) This way the indie filmmaker can make a living and make a dream come true (perhaps) with the exact same camera. And they can do it at a price that they can afford. I'm not saying RED ONE isn't reasonably priced, IT IS, but some of us can't afford it. At least not yet.
Until the camera has a standard Interchangeable Lens mount, true 2K resolution, Critical Focus LCD, a 4:2:2 codec, 1-60 fps rates (progressive), costs $5000-$7000, and can be used for practical money making applications like event videography I will not settle. Then we will have a camera that will be universal for the ultra low budget filmmaker with a DREAM.
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Firstly I commend Barry on an excellent pull together, and there's nothing in principle I disagree with. As an extra thought, I'd bring up the subject of form factor. It's a bit chicken and egg - until you know the size, weight of the camera - how do you decide what form factor would be best?
If we accept size, weight of this new camera will be similar to the HVX200 or the EX, my vote is very strongly to go for shouldermount - whilst most impressions of the EX seem to have been mostly favourable, some of the biggest criticisms have been for ergonomics. That is the biggest plus (IMO) of the JVC range, but one other desirable feature I'd like to see Sony and Panasonic adopt for their sub-$10,000 range is the use of 12volt pro batteries, ideally V-mount.
Yes, it would be nice, but I wonder if it may not be a step too much to realistically ask for the S35 size? Whether it may just be too unfeasible to expect that at this price/size/weight.
I'm sure Barry is aware of this, but whilst you can give exact pixel dimensions to a chip, and whilst you can specify a recording format exactly, the ACTUAL resolution is far, far more difficult to numerically quantify. Reason? You don't get a situation where 2,354 lines are resolved perfectly, but 2,356 become a grey mush - in practice it drops off gradually. As the lines get closer together, they are resolved less as black and white, more as shades of grey. And Bayer and pixel shift techniques give higher luminance resolutions than for colour, in ways that can't simply be described in ways like "4:2:0" etc - such ratios only really have relevance for recording techniques.
Foveon style sensors do exist, but it's generally regarded that the losses inherent in current implementations don't outweigh just going to more and smaller pixels. But yes, THEORETICALLY they offer the best of both single and three chip worlds if their efficiencies could be improved.
And finally, it's great to hear more and more call for the use of CF in such a product, and I'd add that it is available in speeds up to 40 and 45MBS (320 and 360Mbs) if you pay the money. With 20MBs (160Mbs) pretty cheap now - about $10/GB?
I echo Barrys call about "....for the news station, you might want to buy some cheap 4GB CompactFlash cards...", though I'd expect it more likely they would issue you with a stock at the beginning of the day, and take them back as used. If we assumed AVC-Intra at 50Mbs, you'd get 8 minutes per card - more than enough for many news stories. Certainly for this sort of work having 32GB of storage as 8x4GB is way more useful than a single 32GB card (for a similar price), which is why CF coming in a range of sizes and speeds must be a good thing.
Same applies to SD cards at a lower point in the market, and no doubt P2 and SxS will continue to have advantage at the higher end of the market. I've still not heard a good reason for the EX to use SxS rather thasn CF.
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karapetkov
Well-known member
I would definitely buy the "GREEN ONE" [Haha, a great name in so many ways
].I don't know if 5k $ is realistic but it should definitely be under 10 k.
Actually I wonder how much R & D costs it would take to engineer such a camera?
P.S. I wish I was a billionaire :violin:.... and I wish I was a baller... :happy:
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
I am here and have been doing this for the last 4 years. This is where many of the ideas came from for the DVX100B, and the HVX200 some other new cameras that will be coming. You can have a read on one of the other areas here where the gang has been depositing ideas for the new cameras. Having a direct relationship with the customer is a positive thing when designing a camera. Lots of opportunity for feedback. You take what you can implement for the price point and deliver.
Where I think the direct sales situation falls short is that when you have 40,000 cameras out the door in one year, as an example, how does a team of 30 handle that customer support? Now extend that question to a world wide basis with different languages and cultures. No, I think there is a need for that channel of distribution that can help when you can't get through to the guy at the manufacturer that could help.
The sad part is that some of the vendors only look at their part of the distribution as a warehousing facility, but others take on more of a support role for their customers. I think I could point to examples right here on this board, like the guys from Spec-Comm, or Abel CineTech or EVS or Full Compass. They have knowledge that they are willing to share with their customers and I think this is a win-win scenario, the support team just got larger. See, the sale doesn't end when you hand over your money, it goes on long after, through the buyer's remorse stage, to the learning curve stage and then through your success stage. Yes, there are a number of customers that started small and have made it through all of this and into Sundance with the help of their local vendor and Panasonic. And we have written about them. It's not how small your team of support is, it is how large. This is the real beauty of the relationships that can be had with that distribution channel in-between. And you still have the manufacturer there as well.
All the best,
Jan