recording 720p/24pn

D

Dan Meador

Member
HVX 200, final cut pro studio 2, mac pro. I select 720p/24pn (which should have dimensions of 1280 x 720) on the HVX 200. I then shoot a clip. Download via firewire to Mac/final cut pro. Then review the properties of the downloaded clip and discover that the clip is recorded as........DVCPRO HD 720p60 with dimensions of 960 x 720. I just discovered this yesterday. ALL MY CLIPS show up as this. What is wrong?
And how do I reach Barry Green??
 
That's normal. DVCPRO 100 at 720 is recorded as 960x720 with a pixel aspect ratio of 1.333. If you multiply 960 by 1.333, you get 1280.
 
Well, I never would have guessed that. So final cut pro will render the clip at a final dimension of 1280 x 720? What about the rate? I want 24pn. that's not 60. I have HVX BootCamp vol I. Does Barry go into this in vol II? And is there a way to tell final cut pro in preferences to render to 1280 x 720? thanks.
 
actually there is DVCPRO 720 24p setting both in sequence settings and easy setup. this isn't your camera setup, its your NLE setup.

(i forgot, if you are using fcs2, when you insert a clip into a new sequence that doesn't match the clips format, fc will ask you if you want to change the sequence to match the clip, if you want that then click yes)
 
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I have one more question. If I am considering to have my project distributed on DVD solely to play on a computer screen with their higher resolutions then that of an HD television set, wouldn't I be better off shooting in 1080i/p24. And could I even, if I wanted to, convert that to 720p/24p in final cut pro at some later date if at some point I would like to distribute it for broadcast? They are coming out with 32g P2 cards which would give me almost 30 min of running time. With that said I realize I'd get over 1 hour in 720p/24pn along with all those great variable rates.

Responding to Phillip's feedback. I did set in 'easy setup' my preference for 720p/24p when I first installed the program a few months ago. But all my clips after transfer are always listed as 720p/60p. But thanks to David I sort of understand that now. I dove back into Barry Green's book and continue to work on grasping this. Also, I did try recording using the 1080i/24p mode. It's beautiful and it works!
 
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that is the video compressor setting i believe (the 60p bit) not the actual frame rate, but i am not sure on that. you should look at the frame rate. it should be 23.9-something.

your choice, slightly better picture and a lot more storage space, or variable frame rates, good picture and half the storage requirements. dvd video is sd anyway so i would go with 720, but if you distribute hd, then the choice is a little more complex.

good luck.
 
I downloaded format standards for all the major broadcasting stations....equator, fox, PBS, ABC, etc. They ALL list 1080i HD as the standard they broadcast in. ONLY the sports channels list 720p HD as the standard for their broadcast. Let's face it. 1080 just looks better blown up on a large widescreen TV. So no variable frame rates since not shooting in 720p/24p? But I can manipulate that to some extent using Final Cut Pro. I bet 720 will be history in the next 5 years as cameras evolve their capabilities. Research shows that the number one selection criteria of consumers for HDTV is ONE.......screensize. Next is HD ready. So everyone wants a nice large HDTV. 1080 wins. It's nicer on large computer monitors too. At least large 28 inch monitors like I have. What I'd like to know is can I shot my project in 1080i/p24 and then come back in Final Cut Pro and convert a copy to 720p/24p for distibution on a DVD. Thank goodness the 32 g P2 card is out. That gives me 30 minutes of recording time for 1080i. Not bad.
 
And Phillip brought out the point of increased storage needs. Storage is CHEAP. You can go down to any Staples, etc and but a 500 gig RAID HD for about $300-400. That's 500 minutes of 1080i. And the prices continue to come down as we speak.
 
Dan Meador said:
And Phillip brought out the point of increased storage needs. Storage is CHEAP. You can go down to any Staples, etc and but a 500 gig RAID HD for about $300-400. That's 500 minutes of 1080i. And the prices continue to come down as we speak.
Click to expand...

Costco has WD drives WAY cheap .... $150 each for their 500 gig. 4 of those and you have a 1 TB redundant striped & mirrored RAID.
 
My understanding regarding the HVX200 is that you end up with true progressive when you shoot 1080i/720p. That interlacing is not a component even though Panasonic labels it '1080i'. Is that true? I'm sure I read that in one of Barry Green's posts but I'm hard pressed to say in what thread. This is in response to David Jimerson's post. Also, I've got to check out Costco!
 
Well, 1080 and 720 are separate things.

If you shoot 1080/24p or 1080/30p, it's true progressive footage.

However, because of the codec, it has to be recorded in an interlaced stream. But you can still get the original progressive frames out and edit in native 24p or 30p.
 
I thought the following would be helpful....
Is 720p vs 1080i worth being concerned about? Yes and no. If you're a consumer looking for a new TV, you can happily ignore the 720p vs 1080i debate because every TV which is described as HDTV or HDTV Ready is required to support both formats.
NOTE: You should be aware though that lots of TVs which support 1080i have fewer than 1080 lines and so scale the 1080 signal down. That's not a huge issue as even scaled down 1080i is far ahead of a regular NTSC signal. It is worth bearing in mind that more expensive HDTVs tend to have better scalers than cheaper ones, and this may be an issue.
However, for broadcasters it's a live issue. Should they broadcast 1080 lines of interlaced video or 720 lines of progressive scan? They could just broadcast two signals, one in each format, but that would use up a huge chunk of bandwidth and be hugely expensive for very little gain.
To answer the question, it's important to understand the difference between 720p vs 1080i. A 720p signal is made up of 720 horizontal lines. Each frame is displayed in its entirety on-screen for 1/30th of a second. This is known as progressive scan (hence the 'p')The quality is like watching 30 photographic images a second on TV. A 1080i signal comprises 1080 horizontal lines but all the lines are not displayed on-screen simultaneously. Instead, they are interlaced (hence the 'i'), ie every other lines is displayed for 1/60th of a second and then the alternate lines are displayed for 1/60th of a second. So, the frame rate is still 30 frames per second, but each frame is split into two fields, which your brain then puts together subconsciously.
Most of the time interlacing works fine, but for fast moving images, such as sports like baseball and hockey it can cause problems which manifest themselves as a 'stepping' effect on-screen. Progressive scan signals don't have this problem and so are better suited to sports.
ESPN puts it like this: 'Progressive scan technology produces better images for the fast moving orientation of sports television. Simply put, with 104 mph fastballs in baseball and 120 mph shots on goal in hockey, the line-by-line basis of progressive scan technology better captures the inherent fast action of sports. For ESPN, progressive scan technology makes perfect sense.'

Kenny Hemphill is the editor and publisher of The HDTV Tuner - a guide to the kit, the technology and the programming on HDTV.
Article Source: http://ezinearticles.com/?expert=Kenny_Hemphill
 
I'm really trying to head off obsolence of my project in the long run by shooting in 1080p which, from what I am reading, is the coming wave. If I can effectively achieve that using an HVX200 shooting in 1080 "i"/p24, which it sounds like to me from this discussion, is recorded as TRUE progressive video without ANY interlacing, then I think that's what I want to do.
Then their is the next question.......will it broadcast? Sounds like only a small handful of HDTVs being sold are even capable of handling true progressive 1080. The broadcast standard TODAY is 720 and 1080i. Not 1080p. So the next question is can I convert my project back down to 720 for broadcast TODAY. That way when in 10 years everybody else's 720 and 1080i footage shot today looks terrible on higher resolution 1080p HDTV mine will be 'good to go'.
 
EUREKA, I FOUND IT (on another site though) beautiful in it's simplicity!!!

1080i/24p means the camera is shooting 24 progressive frames per second, then recording, via 3:2 pulldown, the 24 frames across a 60i interlaced stream. You can then use a non-linear editor to remove the pulldown, so you end up with 24 frames/sec progressive. This is done because certain formats, such as NTSC video and DVCPRO 1080i do not allow progressive video, so in a way, this is a cheat that allows 24 frames to be recorded in a 60 field video stream, much the way film is converted to video. To sum up, yes it's progressive footage recorded on a interlaced format. Hope this helps.
 
Now I just have to figure this out. Shoot 1080i/24p or 1080i/24pa. My understanding is that when you convert to film you MUST shoot 24pa. True?
 
Dan,
Barry goes into depth explaining pull down in his book (which you most likely received with the HVX)

Basically 24pa is a better pulldown if you are using a modern non linear editor. The way the pulldown works means that there isnt a frame that is a mixture of two different frames as it happens in 3:2 pulldown. However, the tradeoff is that if you watch a 24pa sequence in a 60i timeline it is going to look more staggered than a 3:2 pulldown.

My rule of thumb is: if you are going to mix 24 and 60i, or will be editing in an older system (and it would have to be pretty old) then use 24p 3:2, if you are going to edit and finish entirely in 24p or going to filmout then 24pa is a better choice.
 
Dan Meador said:
Now I just have to figure this out. Shoot 1080i/24p or 1080i/24pa. My understanding is that when you convert to film you MUST shoot 24pa. True?
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No, converting to film has nothing to do with it. How you plan to edit the foogage: that's the only consideration.

With that said, many editors don't yet support removing pulldown from 3:2 24p footage. If you're going to edit on a 24p timeline, 1080/24pA should be the choice always. If editing on a 60i timeline (Avid, for example, which doesn't support 1080/24p editing from DVCPRO-HD) you can get a slightly smoother candence from 1080/24p. But even then I'd still say just shoot 24pA, because it preserves your options in other editors.
 
Okay, will shoot my project with 1080i/24pa. Sounds best to me. Now this is probably divergent from the running topic and I'm sure somewhere in DVXUser this is being hotly debated, but my question is, what role does the RED CAMERA play in indie film making? Seems that the HVX200 in plenty for broadcast or DVD production. And I suspect you can get decent conversion to film to show your work in an art house. Is it an issue of just better resolution. My simple grasp of it is that the RED is more suited for major theatrical releases. What are the odds of that happening for the usual indie filmmaker?! And yet I like the idea of digital moving closer to 35 mm film, being able to interchange lens and being on the wave of this exploding digital revolution. Seems like no matter what you do your equipment is going to be obsolete in 5 years.
I guess what I'm getting at is do I RENT a red camera instead of using my HVX200 if I'm producing something that I think in my own deluded brain might 'go big'? When you show up at Warner Brothers door with your project all wrapped up with a bow, do they throw up their hands and say 'we can't use that. It's shot with a HVX200. Too bad you didn't shot with a RED (or something like it). Could that happen?
 
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