The future of HVX200

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der4

Active member
I have read several threads about both Sony's new EX and the HVX200. The truth is I like both cameras for different reasons. First I must state that I was an owner of a Sony V1U. I chose this over the HVX200 and eventually sold it. I couldn't live with artifacts and oil paint issues. I should have purchased an HVX back then. Fortunately, I'm not in a rush to buy a camera right now. But I plan on purchasing something after NAB. I'm hoping that the HVX200 will get an upgrade this year. I'm not sure if the HVX is future proof. P2 is not a concern to me. I'm aware it is not going to go away anytime soon. I should note that if I had the money I would buy a RED.

My frustration is that I think the HVX200 is at the same price point as the Sony EX. My main reason for this is the fact that I still would need to buy an HD monitor for critical focus if I buy the HVX200.

Do you guys think it's time for Panasonic to upgrade the HVX200? If they don't I'm not sure which one I will buy. I feel that there is a void in the market at this price point. I want the 422 color space of the HVX. I don't want to connect another unit like the cineform to get my 422. I want it built into the system. But I also want the low light and resolution of the Sony EX. And at least a critical focus monitor onboard.

Does Panasonic have anything in the works that has been announced? When the HVX200 first came out it was hyped on this site for a long time. I haven't seen any of that which makes me wonder what Panasonic is going to do. They have offered a P2 card which is nice but it still doesn't convince me to buy the HVX.

I guess I want to take both cameras and cross-breed them into the ultimate low budget camera with all the enthusiasm of this site and an instruction manual by Barry Green. Keeping the price point under $7,000.00

Am I the only one that feels there is a void here?
 
There isn't a void. The HVX is a freakin' fantastic camera. The EX, from what I've heard, is also a great camera.

If you have either of these cameras, you're going to be happy with what they can do. If not, if you need a better image, then you most likely have the money to pony up for a better camera.

I really don't get people who complain about what these cameras are doing. These are great cameras. No, they're not Reds, but you're not paying for a Red, either. You're paying significantly less, for a full-featured camera package that will shoot just about anything you ask of it.

I heard a guy complaining about the HVX the other day. I asked him what he wanted, and he said he wanted a Red for $1,000. You know what I call that person? Unhappy. Because he's sitting on a good camera and wishing for something else instead of being happy with what he has and pushing it to deliver the best image it can.
 
There are no specific announced "in the works" improvements to the HVX200. NAB2008 is the usual time for upgrades, but I don't even see any info about a B version.
 
der4 said:
My frustration is that I think the HVX200 is at the same price point as the Sony EX.
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The EX is about 30% more expensive than the HVX.

My main reason for this is the fact that I still would need to buy an HD monitor for critical focus if I buy the HVX200.
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Why? I've done several projects using the onboard LCD with the focus assist, and it's serviceable. That said, an external HD monitor would always be better, but you said "need"... have you tried it yet?

Do you guys think it's time for Panasonic to upgrade the HVX200?
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We'd all love to see an upgraded HVX. No idea if they plan on doing it, but we've made big lists of things we'd love to see them add.

Does Panasonic have anything in the works that has been announced?
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Not at the HVX-and-above price point; apparently they have a new AVC-HD camera that looks an awful lot like the DVX100 in form factor.

When the HVX200 first came out it was hyped on this site for a long time.
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Manufacturers *never* pre-announce anything that competes with an existing model. They'll pre-announce a totally new model, but you're not going to see any updates pre-hyped. If they introduced a shoulder-mount HVX200 with interchangeable lenses, then yes I'd expect to see pre-release info on it months prior to release. But if they were to upgrade the HVX200, they'll probably just say "surprise, here's a new HVX200a" or whatever.

I guess I want to take both cameras and cross-breed them into the ultimate low budget camera with all the enthusiasm of this site and an instruction manual by Barry Green. Keeping the price point under $7,000.00
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Pocket Red, anyone? :D
 
RED, RED, RED....that's all I can say.

and as previously stated a smaller red 2k camera. But that's probably a year out considering RED has only a hundred cameras out at the moment and committing their time to the RED 1
 
Hey I'm not complaining about the HVX or EX. I just want more for the same money. Why not? RED ONE has done exactly this with their camera. So why not tell the manufacturers what we really need. I'm sure most of us would be buying a RED if we could afford to. Instead we buy an HVX with a 35mm adapter. I feel confident that if the HVX and RED didn't come out that we wouldn't have the EX on the market today. Thanks Panasonic and RED.

I really don't care if RED, Panasonic, or Sony builds the camera. (Though I believe RED is the most likely candidate. So my vote goes to RED. Barry you should write the book.) But I think 90% of us basically want the same thing. It only makes sense to me to have a high RES and LOW res camera with similar features. Just like the 35mm and Super 16mm cameras. The RED is the 35mm. I want the Super 16mm version. HVX is a great start but I don't want that to be the finish line under 10K.

Here's what I think we should all push for. Why not have a HD/2K camera. Perhaps 5-6 megapixels. I believe the RED is 11. The EX is about 2, correct? At minimum a full 1/2" sensor like the EX. But let's not STOP there. I want interchangeable lenses. Come on. Now Sony's new camera's are providing this in HDV. Why didn't they do it for the EX? $$$ We want it. A nice LCD with a critical focus range like the Ikan/Marshall. I believe the EX provides this. (By the way IKAN is a great customer service company). And the option of 422 or 444 wavelet based codec for FX. P2 type flash media is also important. Digital outputs such as HDMI for in studio use. Sony has done this.

RED said a year ago that they were going to build a pocket camera. I'm hoping what they mean is a camera for the sub 10K market. If they would do this I would be happy to give them a deposit similar to what they did on the first one. What's great about this is when I have more money I wold buy the RED ONE and use the other one as a B camera.

I'll take RED "pocket" reservation #1

Who wants #2? (Maybe we should start a reservation list and see if RED will take it. J/K)

But if they don't I will probably get the SONY EX (NAB) and the future Cineform drive. Here's for hoping.
 
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der4 said:
Hey I'm not complaining about the HVX or EX. I just want more for the same money. Why not? RED ONE has done exactly this with their camera. So why not tell the manufacturers what we really need. I'm sure most of us would be buying a RED if we could afford to. Instead we buy an HVX with a 35mm adapter. I feel confident that if the HVX and RED didn't come out that we wouldn't have the EX on the market today. Thanks Panasonic and RED.

I really don't care if RED, Panasonic, or Sony builds the camera. (Though I believe RED is the most likely candidate. So my vote goes to RED. Barry you should write the book.) But I think 90% of us basically want the same thing. It only makes sense to me to have a high RES and LOW res camera with similar features. Just like the 35mm and Super 16mm cameras. The RED is the 35mm. I want the Super 16mm version. HVX is a great start but I don't want that to be the finish line under 10K.

Here's what I think we should all push for. Why not have a HD/2K camera. Perhaps 5-6 megapixels. I believe the RED is 11. The EX is about 2, correct? At minimum a full 1/2" sensor like the EX. But let's not STOP there. I want interchangeable lenses. Come on. Now Sony's new camera's are providing this in HDV. Why didn't they do it for the EX? $$$ We want it. A nice LCD with a critical focus range like the Ikan/Marshall. I believe the EX provides this. (By the way IKAN is a great customer service company). And the option of 422 or 444 wavelet based codec for FX. P2 type flash media is also important. Digital outputs such as HDMI for in studio use. Sony has done this.

RED said a year ago that they were going to build a pocket camera. I'm hoping what they mean is a camera for the sub 10K market. If they would do this I would be happy to give them a deposit similar to what they did on the first one. What's great about this is when I have more money I wold buy the RED ONE and use the other one as a B camera.

I'll take RED "pocket" reservation #1

Who wants #2? (Maybe we should start a reservation list and see if RED will take it. J/K)

But if they don't I will probably get the SONY EX (NAB) and the future Cineform drive. Here's for hoping.
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I'm guessing there's a couple thousand people who would compete for pocket red reservation #1. Probably more............... :happy:
 
der4 said:
Hey I'm not complaining about the HVX or EX. I just want more for the same money. Why not? RED ONE has done exactly this with their camera.
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Done exactly what? Give everyone everything, plus more? No they certainly haven't. They took away video recording entirely, for one thing. The list of things that video cameras do, that Red doesn't do, would be a mile long. Red emulates what a film camera does, not what a video camera does. A totally different market.

Red has moved all the "video" functionality out of the camera and onto your desktop computer. So you can accomplish many of the same tasks, but not quite the same, and not the same workflow. It's more like a film workflow. Which is great for filmmakers, but I doubt you're going to see Red Ones being used to shoot the Super Bowl or stuff like that.

Every product is built to hit a certain price tag, and every product will make compromises along the way (or you'll be the one making the compromise with your wallet, but either way there will be a compromise). That's how things work.

If you like the idea of a camera front end that connects to a computer back end, look into the SI-2K and also the Sumix; the Sumix is a 1920x1080 2/3" system for $2500. Of course there's no menu settings, no recording format, no lens, no autofocus, no gamma or picture controls, no anything really; just a camera head. But it's a variable-frame-rate uncompressed high-def 2/3" system for $2500. For that price tag, I bet many people would be willing to compromise on their workflow. For those who won't compromise their workflow, they can instead compromise their wallet and get a full-featured camera that does what they need. But there's always going to be a tradeoff somewhere.

So why not tell the manufacturers what we really need.
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Please do. That's how the DVX100 came about, and that's how the Red One came about.

I'm sure most of us would be buying a RED if we could afford to.
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Some of us would (I am, for example) but it's a totally inappropriate tool for many tasks. I mean, probably the #1 way to make money with a camcorder is to shoot weddings and events. A Red would be perhaps the single least suitable tool for doing that job.

I feel confident that if the HVX and RED didn't come out that we wouldn't have the EX on the market today. Thanks Panasonic and RED.
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Don't forget the XHA1 and HV20 as well; they're breakthroughs at their price points. But yes, competition is pushing the manufacturers to "up their game" which results in better selections for us.

I really don't care if RED, Panasonic, or Sony builds the camera. (Though I believe RED is the most likely candidate. So my vote goes to RED. Barry you should write the book.)
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I'm lookin' at it... Thanks for the vote of confidence!

Just like the 35mm and Super 16mm cameras. The RED is the 35mm. I want the Super 16mm version.
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Hence why Red has announced plans to someday produce the "Pocket Red".

HVX is a great start but I don't want that to be the finish line under 10K.
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Considering an HVX is 5K, why would you set the bar at 10k? There's lots and lots and lots that could be added for an additional $5,000! You could have TWO HVXs for that $10k price tag you're talking about...

Here's what I think we should all push for. Why not have a HD/2K camera. Perhaps 5-6 megapixels. I believe the RED is 11. The EX is about 2, correct?
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No, not correct. You're mixing technologies; one is a single-chip system (the Red) and the other is a three-chip system. So while the Red One sensor has 12 million pixels total, it's spread across the three primary colors. So the Red has 3 million red pixels, three million blue pixels, and six million green pixels. By total pixel count the EX1 has about 2 million red, 2 million blue, and 2 million green. So if you want to count total pixels the EX1 is about 6 megapixels, versus the Red's 12 million. Yet one claims 4K resolution and the other is 1080P. (see why it's tricky to mix metaphors?)

There are lots of good ingredients out there. If I was building the "perfect" camera I sure as heck wouldn't start with a rolling-shutter CMOS, I'd aim for a 2.5K-res S35-sized CCD. To hell with rolling-shutter CMOS, let's do this thing right. A single-chip CCD using a Beyer pattern (2.5k, so by the time it's de-bayered it's a full 2K res) or a single-chip Foveon-style sensor would let us use film lenses, instead of 3 chips which prevents that option. If Foveon could work, that'd be awesome because we'd have 4:4:4 in a single-chip system.

Build it with the P&S Technik interchangeable lens mount system so you can use cheap Nikons or premium PL-mount Zeiss Ultra Primes, or a B4 ENG lens, whatever -- your choice with the quick twist of the mount. It should have on-body support for autoexposure and autofocus, so if you connect an autofocus SLR lens it can use it, if you connect an ENG lens it can use the auto-iris capability, etc. And CAC!

Provide the option to record processed ready-to-air video to data files (like HVX/EX1) so you can use it to make a living shooting video and hand that footage right to the client, and also have the option to record the raw sensor data (like Sumix/Red do) for your extensive grading and high-quality film work. It should record to cheap commodity media like CompactFlash or SD cards. Have standard interfaces like genlock and timecode in/out and HDMI (unless the price tag can support HD-SDI) and a cheap BNC composite feed so jib & steadicam operators can integrate it into existing workflows. Pure progressive recording (death to interlace once and for all!) and variable frame rates from 1 to 120. It should be able to record standard frame sizes such as SD 16:9, 720p, 1080p and full raw 2K. (4K's nice but I'd rather have 4x larger pixels for 2 stops better sensitivity and dynamic range, and we're also tryin' to keep the price down). An LCD as good as the EX1's, with colored peaking and pixel-to-pixel on-board (and both at the same time, fer cryin' out loud!) User swappable scene files. Uncompressed audio in 4 channels with 4 proper XLRs like the HPX500 has. Intraframe encoding so no goofy MPEG bullcrap -- the video should be recorded in 10-bit 4:2:2 intraframe at an adequate bandwidth, using an advanced codec like wavelet or AVC. And it should record to computer-editable formats -- MXF, AVI and Quicktime, your choice. And the codec it records to should be a freely distributable, nonproprietary system. No proprietary codec, no stupid "it works only on a Mac but not on Windows" idiocy, and no "you gotta buy it" proprietary solution. It should be a standard codec that, when someone clicks the file in their Quicktime or Windows Media Player application, if the codec hasn't been installed yet, the OS knows how to go online, find and download the freely distributable playback codec. So no client will ever be left asking "what am I supposed to do with these files?"

Oh, while we're at it, gigabit ethernet data streaming of the raw signal (or very mildly compressed, if it needs to be, to fit on a gigabit pipe). Two card slots for hot-swapping, and a recording buffer of maybe a minute of RAM in-camera so that the recording mechanism can work with slower lower-cost memory (i.e., if the cards can only sustain 20 megaBytes/sec write speed but you're shooting 30 megaBytes/sec data rate, the system can buffer up in RAM and when you stop recording it automatically flushes the buffer out. So it writes as fast as possible, and if you're running at 20mB/s data rate the memory card can keep up, but if you're running at 30mB/s then it'll write out 20mB/s as fast as it can, and buffer up the rest until you cut recording, at which point it'll continue churning the data out until it's completely finished. And also implement write verification so you can have 100% confidence that your recorded data is "good."

In fact, maybe it should have RAM slots, like in a desktop computer, so you can add as much RAM as you want. If you don't like the ram buffering concept you may want to just buy premium high-cost high-speed CompactFlash for recording the full 30mB/sec data rate. But if you're working as a stringer for the news station, you might want to buy some cheap 4GB CompactFlash cards, and then you'd need the buffering feature. So you'd opt for the choice to plug some computer RAM in those slots, but other users who didn't need that feature could leave the slots empty, etc. In this way the user can tailor the price tag and the camera to their particular needs.

For that matter, give us full proper menu settings (black gamma, master gamma, 12-pole color matrix) as well as simple settings. Let the user choose "simple" or "advanced" menu operations, depending on their level of experience and expertise.

And let's rock this one: base it on Linux, with published open-source source code so end users can change/modify and improve the software, adding features. Let the community develop it to even greater potential. And, taking a page from Red, make it modular so that it's user upgradeable if new sensors or new faster DSP chips come out, etc.

This would be one camera that can truly "do it all". An S35-sized sensor for 35mm DOF, 2K res gives you an ISO of probably around 1,000 for incredible low light (and of course we want negative gain to clean up the noise performance), interchangeable lenses let you go as professional or as "ghetto" as you want, it's a full proper "video" camera for making a living with, and it's a raw digital "film replacement" camera for making your masterpiece.
 
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Barry,

You know if they make it, they are going to have to call it Green, and I'd buy it!

The good thing is that it is not a fantasy. The technology is here today (Foveon excepted), it just has to be packaged, tested and shipped.

Two years ago, when Red was announced, I think their statements of intent and everyone's wishes merged together into thinking that the Red was going to fill that void. Become the "One" camera that could do it all. Maybe in another year of development it will be.

Red has an interchangeable sensor at its core and an amazing team pushing it forward. So anything is possible.

Red and Green. Good Christmas colors....

Rob
 
Barry, this was the best post on new camera possibilities I've read. Now don't "disappear" like Juan, and keep posting! :)
 
Barry,
You are right on the money. That would be a great camera. BTW, I didn't realize that RED's goal is to make the "Pocket Red" the Super 16mm version camera. Have they given out that info? All I read was that they wanted to make a pocket version professional RED. I hope this is their strategy. And I hope it's announced in 2008. As for the perfect camera I realize there isn't one. I should point out that I'm coming from a filmmaking perspective not event videography. Thus my reason for appreciating the RED ONE. But hey let's make it for both as you described. I'm on board. My thought was 5K for the camera and then accessories= $10K. Now I know we could spend a lot more on lenses etc. but if it started at 5K that would be great. I would pull out my Nikons and start shooting. I also think that non-proprietary codecs, and flash media for multi-platform computers is the way to go. Linux is a no brainer. I think using RED's existing sensors and concepts would save a lot of development time. It could also help us by giving a future proof B camera in conjunction with the RED ONE. They could take what they already have learned and make a smaller version. This would save them money and hopefully pass that savings on to us. Once it's built we could go from there. That way it 's in our hands sooner then later. The computer RAM idea is really cool as well.

Good Stuff. We should create a whole new SECTION on this Website for this topic. We Could call it the "Green" Camera. But hey if RED will do it then I don't really care what the name is. We could get a list of everyone who wants it put together that way the manufactures know we are serious.

Reservation #1: Barry Green (With respect to your concept.)
Reservation #2: Anthony "Der4"
Reservation #3: Any takers???
 
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BAJA PRODUCTIONS said:
Prince Filmy said:
what is pocket red?
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RED, RED, RED....that's all I can say.

and as previously stated a smaller red 2k camera.
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I don't think anyone from RED has ever said anything about the pocket RED, except that it will be a "professional" camera, whatever that means. From "pocket" you probably could reasonably infer that it will be smaller than RED One. But, to my knowledge, no one has officially said that it will be a 2K camera.
 
Barry, that post is gold. I can't think of a single thing you missed.

I'd buy that camera in a heartbeat. I don't understand why we are forced to make so many sacrifices with each of these pro cameras. It's amazing how far we've gotten, but I'm impatient. One of the manufacturers needs to get it right!

Is it that they don't know what we want? Or is it that they don't want to/can't make a camera this good because of the way it would affect everything else in their pro line? Would all of those features inevitably put this into the highest end of the spectrum, in terms of cost?
 
Jared Meyer said:
Barry, that post is gold. I can't think of a single thing you missed.

I'd buy that camera in a heartbeat. I don't understand why we are forced to make so many sacrifices with each of these pro cameras. It's amazing how far we've gotten, but I'm impatient. One of the manufacturers needs to get it right!

Is it that they don't know what we want? Or is it that they don't want to/can't make a camera this good because of the way it would affect everything else in their pro line? Would all of those features inevitably put this into the highest end of the spectrum, in terms of cost?
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Never underestimate the pressures involved. No one's truly independent; outside influences will have some say no matter what . . .
 
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