mikkowilson
Steadi-Guru
Nice grab. Shame about all that CA though, I'd have hoped for less with the larger chips.
- Mikko
Will EX-1 be leaps and bounds better than HVX?
- Thread starter Morpheus_23
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Nice grab. Shame about all that CA though, I'd have hoped for less with the larger chips.
- Mikko
Stevet
Veteran
For those interested. I'm not sure how long these will last, but Andreas put up some vignetting tests for his cam.
http://ex.bolanski.com/
No issues seen in these tests. That's good news. Well, it's been said that you can see a very slight (I mean slight) amount near the wide end.
Also, I'm blown away how clean the low light wall shots look.
This camera has VERY low noise!
http://ex.bolanski.com/
No issues seen in these tests. That's good news. Well, it's been said that you can see a very slight (I mean slight) amount near the wide end.
Also, I'm blown away how clean the low light wall shots look.
This camera has VERY low noise!
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Elton
Veteran
Yes, camera was turned on back to default settings. I don't know what that actually means in terms of detail, but the 720 that I saw looked very crisp.
I did see some of Chris' XDCAM footage that was recorded at the same time as SDI and oddly enough...looked a little better. It could've been his monitor compared to mine, but it's like I saw less smudging in the XDCAM HQ stuff than the raw SDI.
I know, it makes no sense, but hopefully we'll do some further tests to really see what's what.
Chris likes to shoot with all detail settings off, and in theory that would give you the most flexibility in post, but even with the higher resolution of the EX1 I'm not convinced that it is the ideal way to shoot with the camera. Disclaimer: I like crispy details...not overly sharpened mind you, but good delineation of fine detail like hair, etc. Shooting with detail totally off robs the EX of much of that extra HD pop, IMO.
Personally, the juries still out in my mind. I want to dive into the settings and see what can be done.
I did see some of Chris' XDCAM footage that was recorded at the same time as SDI and oddly enough...looked a little better. It could've been his monitor compared to mine, but it's like I saw less smudging in the XDCAM HQ stuff than the raw SDI.
I know, it makes no sense, but hopefully we'll do some further tests to really see what's what.
Chris likes to shoot with all detail settings off, and in theory that would give you the most flexibility in post, but even with the higher resolution of the EX1 I'm not convinced that it is the ideal way to shoot with the camera. Disclaimer: I like crispy details...not overly sharpened mind you, but good delineation of fine detail like hair, etc. Shooting with detail totally off robs the EX of much of that extra HD pop, IMO.
Personally, the juries still out in my mind. I want to dive into the settings and see what can be done.
Elton
Veteran
I'm pretty sure I was wide open at F1.9 too. That probably had some impact on CA.
mikkowilson
Steadi-Guru
That's great to hear.
I'd love to hear about the downconverted Composite output at off-speed too. (Steadicam and Jib guys know why this is critical)
- Mikko
Stevet
Veteran
Barlow,
So the jury is still out if the SDI looks better than the internal processing XDCAM codec?
I hear you, it does not make sense.....
This is the signal in digital form before it goes to the XDCAM codec.
I wonder if there's something else going on here.
Also, all who have seen the SDI out, including ncje has said the SDI out is tack sharp.
Well, today I won an HDLINK on ebay for $315 (new), I'll have to check it out next week. I don't have an HDMI capture card, but do own a monitor (Dell 2405) that's
capable of 1920x1080 via DVI.
Also, I have a 50" pioneer plasma with HDMI. I should be able to at least compare while monitoring.
I'm real interested in Cineform's new HDMI portable recorder they plan on building next year.
So the jury is still out if the SDI looks better than the internal processing XDCAM codec?
I hear you, it does not make sense.....
This is the signal in digital form before it goes to the XDCAM codec.
I wonder if there's something else going on here.
Also, all who have seen the SDI out, including ncje has said the SDI out is tack sharp.
Well, today I won an HDLINK on ebay for $315 (new), I'll have to check it out next week. I don't have an HDMI capture card, but do own a monitor (Dell 2405) that's
capable of 1920x1080 via DVI.
Also, I have a 50" pioneer plasma with HDMI. I should be able to at least compare while monitoring.
I'm real interested in Cineform's new HDMI portable recorder they plan on building next year.
Stevet
Veteran
From the still frame capture comparison (HVX200, EX1, G1, Z1), the EX1 surely had less electronic sharpening than the others and offfered higher detail.
I'm not sure what's going on here; although, I'm really looking forward to running a lot of tests to determine the "ideal" settings for this camera.
I'm not sure what's going on here; although, I'm really looking forward to running a lot of tests to determine the "ideal" settings for this camera.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Sony has a very different way of processing detail, coring, and noise than anybody else. We first noticed this at the 6-way shootout, and it then led to the "oil paint" issue. They're quite aggressive with active noise reduction and you lose detail as you gain up, which is a clue as to what they're doing but I haven't tried to figure out yet what it means.
But I'm not surprised you guys are a little puzzled by it, as it's different than what anyone else does.
But I'm not surprised you guys are a little puzzled by it, as it's different than what anyone else does.
Stevet
Veteran
If this is what some call loosing detail, I'll stay with this oil paint set any day! LOL
I'm not buying any of that.
Elton
Veteran
Stevet,
I think the problem was in turning the detail off. Many exterior shots, even at -3 dB, looked like they had roughly the same amount of detail loss as the higher gain shots.
That EX1 grab from the cam comparison was probably shot with factory default detail settings and there's obviously very little noise, so I think something's amiss in noise department when detail's off . Hope to test a little more this week.
I think the problem was in turning the detail off. Many exterior shots, even at -3 dB, looked like they had roughly the same amount of detail loss as the higher gain shots.
That EX1 grab from the cam comparison was probably shot with factory default detail settings and there's obviously very little noise, so I think something's amiss in noise department when detail's off . Hope to test a little more this week.
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Stevet
Veteran
Elton, I agree with you on this.
I have yet to see one of these cameras not loose some of their "perceived" detail with it turned off.
My HD100 and the HVX200 with detail off looked soft.
I usually left the HD100 on minimum setting. This offered just enough.
The HVX200 with it set to its lowest amount was real soft.
The real question is how do all of these sub 10K cams compare without any added "artificial" detail.
I would of expected the EX1 to appear softer with it's detail setting set to off.
Now, that's the best test regarding detail. Just looking at the red car image, or for that matter the entire
test image the red car came from, the EX1 has less artifical enhancement than all compared, but still
has the most natural clean look while offering the most detail!
HVX200 on Left; EX1 on right
Something to remind themselves as they look at this bottle image is that it was a small crop from a 1080P image. That gives you an idea of actual "detail" regardless of any sharpening effects.
I have yet to see one of these cameras not loose some of their "perceived" detail with it turned off.
My HD100 and the HVX200 with detail off looked soft.
I usually left the HD100 on minimum setting. This offered just enough.
The HVX200 with it set to its lowest amount was real soft.
The real question is how do all of these sub 10K cams compare without any added "artificial" detail.
I would of expected the EX1 to appear softer with it's detail setting set to off.
Now, that's the best test regarding detail. Just looking at the red car image, or for that matter the entire
test image the red car came from, the EX1 has less artifical enhancement than all compared, but still
has the most natural clean look while offering the most detail!
HVX200 on Left; EX1 on right
Something to remind themselves as they look at this bottle image is that it was a small crop from a 1080P image. That gives you an idea of actual "detail" regardless of any sharpening effects.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Thanks for that informative, productive post.
Now go back and read what I said please. As you gain up, the noise reduction circuitry gets aggressive and you lose detail in the shot. How it performs compared to something else is irrelevant to the question of how the noise performance circuitry works. The oil paint effect comes into play strongly on a V1 when you gain up, anything past 6dB really shows it. Elton said the EX1 was exhibiting a bit of that same effect. I was just trying to explain how/why that comes about.
Stevet
Veteran
Sorry Barry.
My bad.
But, unless I see images at several gains that actually show a direct comparison between competative cameras and how it affects the detail, I'm not going on someones speculation. I'm not going on all of the Sony cams use the same design with the gain/noise reduction. If it looks like your right, believe me, I'll be the first to agree!
I did not hear any complaints from Brian's (Redrock Micro) write up regarding using the EX1 with the M2. In fact he spoke highly of gaining up as high as 12dB.
I realize his writing was focused on levels and noise, but there was nothing on picture quality suffering from 12dB (which I would probably rarely use ever)
Yes, I do realize gain is a relative adjustment to each camera's "stated" 0dB. Based on the EX1's sensitivity, it may need less gain to acheive a one-for-one level of perceived brightness with another comparison camera.
My bad.
But, unless I see images at several gains that actually show a direct comparison between competative cameras and how it affects the detail, I'm not going on someones speculation. I'm not going on all of the Sony cams use the same design with the gain/noise reduction. If it looks like your right, believe me, I'll be the first to agree!
I did not hear any complaints from Brian's (Redrock Micro) write up regarding using the EX1 with the M2. In fact he spoke highly of gaining up as high as 12dB.
I realize his writing was focused on levels and noise, but there was nothing on picture quality suffering from 12dB (which I would probably rarely use ever)
Yes, I do realize gain is a relative adjustment to each camera's "stated" 0dB. Based on the EX1's sensitivity, it may need less gain to acheive a one-for-one level of perceived brightness with another comparison camera.
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puredrifting
Major Contributor
Stevet:
Let us know your first impressions. What would be really cool would be for you to take some digital snaps as you unbox it, inquiring minds will want to know exactly what it comes with.
Nothing as fun as unboxing new cameras although unwrapping the Letus Extreme was right up there.
Good luck with it, seems like it will be quite a nice piece of gear.
Dan
Let us know your first impressions. What would be really cool would be for you to take some digital snaps as you unbox it, inquiring minds will want to know exactly what it comes with.
Nothing as fun as unboxing new cameras although unwrapping the Letus Extreme was right up there.
Good luck with it, seems like it will be quite a nice piece of gear.
Dan
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