Wow, thanks Arnie for opening your big mouth and sh*tting all over the place. You just lost a crapload of Hollywood points right there. But it just shows you the studio exec's plans for breaking the writer's strike - make everyone think the writers are rich, greedy bastards who just want more money (wait a second, that sounds like... like them!)
Those who support writer's strike
- Thread starter Charli
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TwistedLincoln
Veteran
Let's be careful not to get too deep into politics. This is a good thread, and I'd hate to see it locked.
As for Arnold, I'm not sure he meant what it sounds like he did. I don't think he was suggesting that the writers make tons of money, I think he's pointing out that in any strike, the only people that stand to benefit at all are the ones on strike. Everyone else generally suffers.
Ironically, though, he'd be wrong about that if that's what he meant. Even if the writers get what they're asking for, it will take years for them to make up the income they lost while they've been on strike anyway...
As for Arnold, I'm not sure he meant what it sounds like he did. I don't think he was suggesting that the writers make tons of money, I think he's pointing out that in any strike, the only people that stand to benefit at all are the ones on strike. Everyone else generally suffers.
Ironically, though, he'd be wrong about that if that's what he meant. Even if the writers get what they're asking for, it will take years for them to make up the income they lost while they've been on strike anyway...
Then we're back to the ignorant/mendacious choice again.
It's depressing that nobody seems to grasp the fact that the writers' eventual deal **DOES** affect **EVERYBODY** else's deal: other guilds' and unions' residuals (fund contributions) are going to be calculated based upon what the writers eventually negotiate.
Please, guys, stop claiming that this affects nobody but writers, when it comes to benefits from any eventual deal. It affects everybody with an IA card, too.
mjjason
Well-known member
Does anyone know what the minimum WAG salary is for a writer and what is their share of the residuals today? Also what are the asking for in this negotiation?
One issue I do have with this strike is the belief of entitlement to a share in the profits. In most business those who front the money to fund the business are the only ones who share in the profits; as it should be. They are the ones taking the financial risk to back the project and therefore they should be the ones to get the reward. Like in any aspect in life, with risk comes reward.
For the most part a write, actor, director, or whoever is mostly talent. If they are not funding any money into the venture they are typically getting paid a salary. And as any salaried employee in a business they are paid to do their job. If the company or project fails they still have their salary while the investor has lost out. On the flip side, if the project succeeds than the investors wins.
Should the writer be entitled to some of those winnings? I personally don't think so unless their contract states that. And if the contract does state that than I would think their salary would be reduced as a result. Its either one or the other, not both. You can't hedge your bet on a project. Either you get paid as a salaried employee and therefore receive a paycheck regardless of whether the film flops or not, or you take a reduction in salary for a little bit more of the rewards.
Having said all that, I am quite sure that is what they are arguing over today.
mjjason
Well-known member
Thinking about it further, the likely effect of asking for a greater share of the residuals would be a reduction of the minimum salary limit. If that is the case, I am quite sure a reduction in salary and an increase in residuals would actually hurt the writers more. For the most part, most projects in Hollywood fail to turn a considerable profit. So in the end a writer may actually end up making less on a project. Unless they work on a blockbuster or breakout success; which is pretty rare.
Its the age old question, do you take upfront money or share the risk and wait for the profits?
Its the age old question, do you take upfront money or share the risk and wait for the profits?
mjjason
Well-known member
Looks like Twisted Lincoln already brought this up. Should have read the whole thread.
Capt Quirk
Veteran
Cash in hand is easier to spend than a promise.
Luis Caffesse
Admin
Not sure what the WAG minimums are.
The biggest issue on the table is residuals on internet download distribution.
Right now their share of that is 0%
We ('we' guilds in general, not 'we' writers specifically, since I'm not WGA) never go backwards on negotiated wages.
The hits come in the form of reduced fund contributions, reduced growth adjustments, meal/OT calculations, stuff like that. Theoretically medical benefits, too, although the IA has fought a successful rear-guard action to preserve those, over the years.
[quote="Capt Quirk]Cash in hand is easier to spend than a promise.[/quote]
Producers' Guild promises are worthless. Plenty of evidence to show that. If you don't have a contract, you don't have bupkiss.
The hits come in the form of reduced fund contributions, reduced growth adjustments, meal/OT calculations, stuff like that. Theoretically medical benefits, too, although the IA has fought a successful rear-guard action to preserve those, over the years.
[quote="Capt Quirk]Cash in hand is easier to spend than a promise.[/quote]
Producers' Guild promises are worthless. Plenty of evidence to show that. If you don't have a contract, you don't have bupkiss.
Charli
cool little "title"
The AVERAGE writer makes $20k a year. Without residuals, writers would have to get into another line of work. NBC has launched a new NBC directdownload so that you can now view their programs online WITH commercial breaks. Studios state that these downloads are purely 'promotional' to get other people interested in their shows, but studios DO make money off them.
Actors, along with screenwriters, get zero moneys on these 'promotional' web programs. This reason the SAG has gotten together with writers to cry foul. On Tuesday of this week the actors will join the writers on the picket line. On Friday of this week the Battle Star Galactica actors will join the writers on the picket lines I believe at Universal.
Five years ago the internet was still young when it came to downloading television shows online. Not so much today. Actors contract is up in June and you can bet they too will ask for their fair share.
If you are 'promoting' a show on the internet and you say it's not for profit but for marketing sake, they why oh why are you making money but adding commercial spots that cannot be fast forwarded?
Give us a break and pay us what we are due.
Actors, along with screenwriters, get zero moneys on these 'promotional' web programs. This reason the SAG has gotten together with writers to cry foul. On Tuesday of this week the actors will join the writers on the picket line. On Friday of this week the Battle Star Galactica actors will join the writers on the picket lines I believe at Universal.
Five years ago the internet was still young when it came to downloading television shows online. Not so much today. Actors contract is up in June and you can bet they too will ask for their fair share.
If you are 'promoting' a show on the internet and you say it's not for profit but for marketing sake, they why oh why are you making money but adding commercial spots that cannot be fast forwarded?
Give us a break and pay us what we are due.
Luis Caffesse
Admin
The issue of 'average' writer salaries were discussed earlier, with numbers ranging from 20K to 200K. I don't think anyone has cited a rocksolid source for an average yet. Most of the numbers that have been thrown around have been from quotes from articles...and in that case it all depends on who is getting quoted.
That said, I think the salary is a moot point.
As far as WGA minimums go, I found this PDF on the WGA site.
EDITED TO ADD:
This in no way is meant to insinuate I disagreed with the spirit of Charli's post.
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adkimery
Veteran
Well, the contract w/the WGA does state that. Like I've already responded w/a couple of times, the WGA isn't asking for something the writers don't normally get. The internet is emerging as a new distribution medium and the WGA wants to make sure the writers get a percentage when their work is put out over this distribution medium just like they do for other distribution mediums. Writers get residuals when their show is b'cast on TV so why shouldn't they get residuals when the network b'casts it over the internet?
-A
Charli
cool little "title"
SAD - I probably will go to the Culver City lot as it is the close to me, about 9 miles away, I think? I'm going to have a shirt made from Cafe Press before I strike and I may have to wait until everyone gets back from the holidays before I do. I'll contact you and let you know.
Luis - The $200k mark for the AVERAGE writer is ridiculous. Not all writers are able to score a sale for a movie script which base price is usually the $200k-$250 mark. Having said that, it's DIFFICULT to get your script bought, more likely you will impress with writing samples and then get work rewriting other scripts. The AVERAGE moneys made for rewrites, which is the PRIMARY way writers get paid, is more at the lower $20k level.
I know of only a few who have sold scripts, of that few two are BIG writers in the fact they've had scripts PRODUCED (please note that 9 out of 10 scripts never see the light of day) and will live a good life with strike, the other writer I know, however, need that daily rewrite jobs that pay the bills.
The crux is this, our world is ever changing and we are either going to be cut out of the pie, or we will get a piece of it. Without unions of long ago many of our parents and their parents would have starved.
Technology isn't going to wait for us to resolve our strike issues. Technology will move forward like a locomotive on speed.
Luis - The $200k mark for the AVERAGE writer is ridiculous. Not all writers are able to score a sale for a movie script which base price is usually the $200k-$250 mark. Having said that, it's DIFFICULT to get your script bought, more likely you will impress with writing samples and then get work rewriting other scripts. The AVERAGE moneys made for rewrites, which is the PRIMARY way writers get paid, is more at the lower $20k level.
I know of only a few who have sold scripts, of that few two are BIG writers in the fact they've had scripts PRODUCED (please note that 9 out of 10 scripts never see the light of day) and will live a good life with strike, the other writer I know, however, need that daily rewrite jobs that pay the bills.
The crux is this, our world is ever changing and we are either going to be cut out of the pie, or we will get a piece of it. Without unions of long ago many of our parents and their parents would have starved.
Technology isn't going to wait for us to resolve our strike issues. Technology will move forward like a locomotive on speed.
Some of what you see in these webcasts is bespoke, other material is reconfigured for use in Internet collateral. The writers, in addition to being left behind from a residual standpoint, are being leveraged into creating new works exclusively for use on the Internet.
Imagine an editor being hired to cut a feature, then being forced to cut the BTS for the same show without additional compensation. Actually, this is a poor comparison, because most studios or networks could successfully argue that BTS materials have almost no standalone monetary value.
Contrast this to the "promotionals" that WGA writers (and the rest of the company for that matter) are producing, which play with advertising at the top of the piece and all over the webpage where it resides.
If you have any question that the webisodes, podcasts or other Internet-delivered derivative works are commercial in nature, just drop into the ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox sites for shows like House, Lost, Grey's Anatomy, Desperate Housewives and on and on, which are virtually surrounded by and bookended by paid promotional media from the good people at Proctor and Gamble, Ford, Verizon and a few hundred others.
Now, what will be interesting is watching how the networks tiptoe around their web-specific sponsors as they claim that the Internet works aren't commercial in nature. It simply isn't a defensible.
e
Imagine an editor being hired to cut a feature, then being forced to cut the BTS for the same show without additional compensation. Actually, this is a poor comparison, because most studios or networks could successfully argue that BTS materials have almost no standalone monetary value.
Contrast this to the "promotionals" that WGA writers (and the rest of the company for that matter) are producing, which play with advertising at the top of the piece and all over the webpage where it resides.
If you have any question that the webisodes, podcasts or other Internet-delivered derivative works are commercial in nature, just drop into the ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox sites for shows like House, Lost, Grey's Anatomy, Desperate Housewives and on and on, which are virtually surrounded by and bookended by paid promotional media from the good people at Proctor and Gamble, Ford, Verizon and a few hundred others.
Now, what will be interesting is watching how the networks tiptoe around their web-specific sponsors as they claim that the Internet works aren't commercial in nature. It simply isn't a defensible.
e
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Luis Caffesse
Admin
I totally agree.
I was only saying that we haven't seen a verified stat, only quotes from people throwing out numbers.
Many say its in the 20K range.
Some say its below that.
Some say its in the 40s-50s.
And some say above that, with the highest quote I've seen being 200K
(which clearly is ridiculous).
Either way - I agree with what you're saying in regards to the strike.
DeSica
Well-known member
Why are we counting the money in other people's pockets?
I'm sure anyone on here thinks they are worth every penny they are paid, and some feel they are worth more, no matter how easy their job is or how much they make to do whatever they do, whether they are a spoon fed rich man's son or a hard working barely able to get by single parent.
The issue here is propriety. People on here are arguing whether writers deserve points, how many, why....they already get them. The studios have decided that they deserve them, or at least that they will be accorded them. Did they ask you? If not, that should tell you just how important your opinion is in regards to this subject.
As for most films failing to turn a profit, you can thank the studios...overblown budgets, padded accounts, creative accounting, ridiculous salaries for people who have nothing to do with the creative process, an excess of middle management...this all helps to drain profits and hide money that would otherwise have been paid in points to whomever had them coming. Don't you think the studios already figured to shave money off the front end in exchange for points, then figured how to shave that money too? Isn't that a prime example of how the spirit of a contract can be broken when the contract itself isn't, legally? Get your head out of the sand...
Again...if My Big Fat Greek Wedding can be made for $5 million, take in $368 million, and still show a loss, then you know something isn't quite right in tinsel town.
Is honesty and integrity in business un-American? Is Enron the beacon for corporate conduct in commerce?
The studios want to make money off a particular revenue stream, but they don't want to pay the points they would otherwise have to pay for established mediums. The writers don't feel it is fair. The studios are using semantics and subterfuge to avoid agreeing, but the issue will not go away. If you want to use the writing to make money, then just pay the points.
You know a television is just and advertising delivery device, right? All the money paid to actors, writers, producers, set carpenters is generated by ad revenue. All those elaborate emmy winning and silly So You Think You Can... shows are made so you'll buy more Tide detergent and shop at Wal-Mart.
Shows broadcast over the internet with commercials are clearly the same thing. If nobody is paying for ad space, why run free ads and devalue your own services? If you are promoting through the web so people will watch your TV shows, doesn't that show the web has a significant importance in the viewing arena? Wouldn't any Guild want to make sure they anticipate the shift from one medium to another if it meant loss of revenue? Who would want a piece of A and none of B, when A is declining and B is growing? Would any of you geniuses yapping about business make that deal for yourselves?
Count the money in your own pocket, and be thankful nobody shines a light on what you do...lest it be known your approximation of your own worth and the paychecks you have been cashing are both grossly over estimated and rather undeserved.
I'm sure anyone on here thinks they are worth every penny they are paid, and some feel they are worth more, no matter how easy their job is or how much they make to do whatever they do, whether they are a spoon fed rich man's son or a hard working barely able to get by single parent.
The issue here is propriety. People on here are arguing whether writers deserve points, how many, why....they already get them. The studios have decided that they deserve them, or at least that they will be accorded them. Did they ask you? If not, that should tell you just how important your opinion is in regards to this subject.
As for most films failing to turn a profit, you can thank the studios...overblown budgets, padded accounts, creative accounting, ridiculous salaries for people who have nothing to do with the creative process, an excess of middle management...this all helps to drain profits and hide money that would otherwise have been paid in points to whomever had them coming. Don't you think the studios already figured to shave money off the front end in exchange for points, then figured how to shave that money too? Isn't that a prime example of how the spirit of a contract can be broken when the contract itself isn't, legally? Get your head out of the sand...
Again...if My Big Fat Greek Wedding can be made for $5 million, take in $368 million, and still show a loss, then you know something isn't quite right in tinsel town.
Is honesty and integrity in business un-American? Is Enron the beacon for corporate conduct in commerce?
The studios want to make money off a particular revenue stream, but they don't want to pay the points they would otherwise have to pay for established mediums. The writers don't feel it is fair. The studios are using semantics and subterfuge to avoid agreeing, but the issue will not go away. If you want to use the writing to make money, then just pay the points.
You know a television is just and advertising delivery device, right? All the money paid to actors, writers, producers, set carpenters is generated by ad revenue. All those elaborate emmy winning and silly So You Think You Can... shows are made so you'll buy more Tide detergent and shop at Wal-Mart.
Shows broadcast over the internet with commercials are clearly the same thing. If nobody is paying for ad space, why run free ads and devalue your own services? If you are promoting through the web so people will watch your TV shows, doesn't that show the web has a significant importance in the viewing arena? Wouldn't any Guild want to make sure they anticipate the shift from one medium to another if it meant loss of revenue? Who would want a piece of A and none of B, when A is declining and B is growing? Would any of you geniuses yapping about business make that deal for yourselves?
Count the money in your own pocket, and be thankful nobody shines a light on what you do...lest it be known your approximation of your own worth and the paychecks you have been cashing are both grossly over estimated and rather undeserved.
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Luis Caffesse
Admin
If that was directed at my post on salary - then you misinterpreted my intention.
If not...well...then ignore this post.
I suppose the nets could argue that they only receive consideration once for the two market segments of advertising. The argument would effectively be that the Febreeze ad you see online is paid as a part of the Febreeze placements you see during the first-run broadcast airing of the associated property in primetime.
Again, that'd require a totally transparent accounting process, where the books would be wide open to the guild's accountants for audit.
That would be interesting, although I think we all know that that isn't how the networks are structuring their online marketing sales. At least not the vast majority of it. I'm certain that it is a completely separate budget detail in their show-by-show P&L.
e
Again, that'd require a totally transparent accounting process, where the books would be wide open to the guild's accountants for audit.
That would be interesting, although I think we all know that that isn't how the networks are structuring their online marketing sales. At least not the vast majority of it. I'm certain that it is a completely separate budget detail in their show-by-show P&L.
e
DeSica
Well-known member
If that was directed at my post on salary - then you misinterpreted my intention.
If not...well...then ignore this post.
How did I know you were going to somehow think it was about you?
If you read it through, you know it obviously isn't...and I do think that when a real figure is unearthed about what the average writer earns, meaning add up all the salaries paid to Guild members and divide by that number of members, it will show that these are all not pampered hacks making 6 figures a year.
I think the stuff we read in magazines like GQ, where they talk about writers getting $300k a year doing nothing but uncredited polishes and re-writes, gives some of us a false impression of what the majority of writers make.
That is besides the point, however...and I feel ignoring you would have been rude, Luis.
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