24p Advanced? Need a little more incite...

claxius

claxius

Active member
I've read Adam Wilt on the matter and have surfed the threads regarding 24p and 24pa. The common response is shoot 24pa if you edit on a 24fps timeline and 24p if you edit on 29.97 timeline.

But...lol....what does all that mean?

I've read that 24pa's 24fps footage is of higher quality than 24p because of the pulldown in post. So if that's the case why doesn't everyone shoot in 24pa. BUT is 24pa only necessary if you plan on transferring to film, and 24p is better if you stay on video? Is there a huge difference in the output options (dvd, tv) between the two?

I really apologize for the redundency of the topic but I am such a noob and the broad answers of "24p vs 24pa is just an editing decision" doesnt really answer it for me. It can't be that black and white, can it?
 
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first off, All NLE's are usually defulted to a regular DV NTSC setup, which means 29.97. I don't know why you would think 24fps when standard video is 30.

The benefits to using 24pa: if you are going to film, or want a 24p DVD. Other than that there is no difference between 24p and 24pa. They both look exactly the same. Many people use 24p if they are going back out to tape.
 
In addition to what smpprodutions said, when the DVX origionally came out, not all NLE's supported 23.976fps timelines, and not all NLE's removed the pulldown on the footage.
 
smpproductions said:
The benefits to using 24pa: if you are going to film, or want a 24p DVD. Other than that there is no difference between 24p and 24pa. They both look exactly the same. Many people use 24p if they are going back out to tape.
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Hmmm. That's a common misconception.

There's no difference between 24p and 24pA except how the fields are arranged in the 60i stream. Both are true 24p. Both can be used to make 24p DVDs and to go out to film.

"24p for editing in 60i (also known as 30i or 29.97i); 24pA for editing in 24p" is a good rule of thumb, and it's easy to say to a beginner because it's the least confusing way of thinking about it. But if it's taken as written in diamond, it causes confusion.

24p (standard) is best for editing in 60i because it has the smoother motion between the two schemes. You CAN edit 24pA in 60i, but because of the way the fields are arranged, you MIGHT see some extra jerkiness in footage with a lot of motion, jerkiness you won't see as much of in 24p (standard). Because it's optimized for playback in a 60-field stream, 24p (standard) is better for editing in that environment.

BUT, that doesn't mean that you can't edit 24p (standard) footage in a 24p timeline. Every major 24p NLE has the option of removing standard pulldown, as well as advanced, and you can edit the native 24p frames. 24pA is optimized for pulldown removal, however, and it's less taxing to remove the advanced pulldown than it is the standard pulldown. (Also, 24pA uses frame-based compression instead of field-based compression, which IN THEORY can give a higher-quality image, but in practice in the low-resolution SD world, you'll never actually SEE a difference.) So, if you know you're going to edit in 24p, shooting 24pA is always better -- though it's not a deal-breaker if you don't.

The bigger question is, when should you edit in 24p? The answer is, any time you're working with all 24p footage, regardless of your intended output. Editing in 24p does NOT mean that you can't output to 60i later; you still have your full slate of options for output, whereas editing in 60i can limit your output options.

You should always match your timeline to the timebase of your footage, so that you can be sure that text, transiitions, or any other kind of added effect will match the timebase of your footage. Otherwise, you can end up with text or other motion that doesn't match your footage and will not look very good. You can often see this in cheap local commercials which are shot in 24p and then all the added media is 60i . . . it looks really bad.

The only time you should edit 24p in 60i is if you're mixing it with footage of different timebases -- 30p, or with 60i if you want to retain the look of the 60i. You'll get the best result that way.
 
John Kary said:
In addition to what smpprodutions said, when the DVX origionally came out, not all NLE's supported 23.976fps timelines, and not all NLE's removed the pulldown on the footage.
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Yes, in which case, you'll want to shoot 24p (standard). This is also true of most consumer-level NLEs even now.

But if you have the option, you should edit in 24p, as I explained above.
 
i always see everyone saying edit in a 24p timeline. how do you actually get a 24p timeline. when i open final cut its an obvious 60i. i dont see any "options" for a 24p timeline, and ive looked everywhere. i dont mean to thread jack, but i dont think this easy of a question deserves its own thread. is it just the preset for ntsc 48khz-24?
 
ad4mgsr: I don't have the program open right in front of me, but I'm pretty sure this is how you do it.

Right click on your SEQUENCE in the bin and select properties. A bunch of info will pop up, and one of the fields will be framerate: 29.97. You can type in 24 right into the field.
 
Ad4mgsr said:
i always see everyone saying edit in a 24p timeline. how do you actually get a 24p timeline. when i open final cut its an obvious 60i. i dont see any "options" for a 24p timeline, and ive looked everywhere. i dont mean to thread jack, but i dont think this easy of a question deserves its own thread. is it just the preset for ntsc 48khz-24?
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You want to use DV NTSC 48kHz - 23.98
 
David,
Thank you for taking the time to answer that question in a little bit of depth. I have my own more specific follow-up question to ask that I hope isn't too off-topic:
If I wish to mix 60i footage (at 40% for slow motion) with 24p, would it be best to shoot normal 24p and put both types of footage in a standard 60i timeline? When I export, can I still get a product that is 24p? I get the feeling my phrasing betrays my ignorance here.
Thank you.
 
No. In that instance, you don't want to keep the "60i" look of the 60i footage -- you want it to become 24p, albeit slo-mo 24p. In that case, you want to be editing in 24p.

Whether you render as 24p depends on what you intend to do with the footage. If you want to make a 24p DVD, you'd render as 24p. If you want to go to tape, you'd render as 60i, but as 24p within a 60i stream. (Most NLEs will probably take care of that for you if you just render as DV.)
 
David- can you explain how the major NLE's(avid,fcp,vegas,p.pro) remove pulldown?

I know some do on capture, some on export, ect..

Thanks
 
There are two ways it's done (well, three, but more on FCP in a moment). It's either done on capture, so that the video files captured are straight 24p, or it's done on the timeline, so that the video files captured are exactly as-is on tape (60i with pulldown), and become 24p on the timeline.

Vegas and Premiere remove pulldown on the timeline. FCP and Avid (unless this has changed with the very latest version) remove pulldown during capture.

However, FCP can't remove STANDARD pulldown during capture; if you want 24p files from that, you have to do it manually through Cinema Tools (the third way of doing it).
 
So to clarify, if I capture in p.pro put on time line then copy and paste into After Effects, that footage still has pulldown removed right? The only way to get 24pa out of Vegas and P.pro with pulldown still there is if exported as such?
 
I don't think so. I think if you copy/paste from PP to AE, the clip will be 60i.

The pulldown (in either Vegas or PP) is removed only in a 24p timeline.
 
So only on timeline for preview purposes, so has to be designated upon export as well. Think I get it now.
 
No, it's not just for preview purposes. It's frame-accurate, native 24p editing. You're only working with the 24p frames.
 
Yes, I'm a newbie here. Been reading this stuff awhile, but now that I have a DVX100a in my hands, I'm compelled to participate. What a great resource ya'll are... David, your insights here are very helpful. Now I have a question on this subject.

Been an amateur filmmaker (& also on other side of lens), & now just starting to cross the lines into semi-pro stuff. This is my first foray into 24p. All this about removing the pulldown to edit real 24p... am I just completely out of the loop as long as I'm using Premiere Elements (3.0)? I can't seem to find much here in the way of a pulldown removal, and when I use the "interpret footage" option on a clip already captured, and indicate 23.976, it just slows it all down or something, as audio is affected (women sound like feminine men). That ain't right!

Should I postpone any hopes of using this format till I change or upgrade my NLE? Or is there some trick?

I haven't really found this answer clearly yet, and I've been looking around. So I figured I'd just straight-up ask.

Thank you to anyone who knows Premiere Elements 3.0!
 
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