HVX200, PMW-EX1 or Small RED (model not confirmed)

yeah.

For starters you could check out the 'who's using the hvx' sticky thread. Not just 'serious' films, but a long list of who and what have used the HVX.

Lots of stuff anyways.

Jason
 
LeeBrunet said:
Should I wait until the Sony comes out before buying the HVX? The prices might go down right?
Click to expand...

Get one on eBay for cheaper. Especially when you can't trust even people like B&H Photo, who apparently sent someone on another thread today a gray market HVX.
 
Don't get one on eBay if you expect to have warranty coverage and be eligible for rebates. You may or may not get a grey market camera. Not worth the potential headache. The B&H thing is not a common occurence with them. Regardless, there are plenty of authorized dealers out there. Spec-Comm is a great one and a sponsor here. I bought two hvx's from them.

I saw a thread they had today as well. They are selling a few bundled HVX packages that come with a 16gig P2 card included. www.spec-comm.com. There are many others. Check out the 'where to buy' sticky in the hvx section for a list of the many authorized dealers. Buy from eBay if you want, but don't complain if something goes wrong with your camera and you can't get it fixed under warranty, or you can't get the free BG book or whatever other rebates come along.

Jason
 
Woah, are we certain about this whole B&H gray market thing? I've read about this rumor in a couple of threads now and am wondering where it came from. NewEgg is not a certified panasonic retailer so I would never recommend getting an HVX or a DVX through them.

Last I heard about something like this was when someone bought a USED camera through B&H's used camera department and it was a Japanese model and therefore not under warranty. I thought the whole thing was straightened out, is this the incident you are talking about marketmd?

Edit: never mind I found the thread you are talking about. Still I stand by saying that B&H is a certified panasonic retailer and one of the largest retailers for professional video equipment period. If you buy new from them you should expect a US camera with a warranty.

That being said, personally, the B&H online department is too big and impersonal for my tastes. Since moving to LA I conduct all my purchases through EVS, in person. The guys there are wonderful people and I've had nothing but great service from their sales or rental department. I don't know about their website, but in store they're always willing to work with you as far as price in concerned. (disclaimer: My only association to EVS is as a costumer). Other Panasonic retailers I'd recommend are AbleCineTech and Spec-Comm (specialized Communications). I've had very positive experiences from both companies.

EBay is always a risk, specially with electronics. There is no way to know for sure how much that Director or DP truly babied their cameras, or if they were dropped or what might have happened to make the owner sell the camera. It just seems like too much of a crapshoot for my taste. YMMV. Before eBay though, I'd probably recommend the marketplace section of this website, you can find some good deals from DVXUsers and while you can't be certain that they are truly pros or that they didnt mistreat the equipment, it feels alot less anonymous than eBay.
 
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Barry_Green said:
and you'll also have the potential for rolling shutter artifacts.
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Someone needs to do the "helicopter test" on the Sony as soon as they get their hands on it. If it has any of that wobbling it is useless for matchmoving, which is 90% of pro CGI.
 
There was some confusion about it several months back. And, there was a big long drawn out thread about it. I dont' really remember what the 'official' word on why/how it happened was... But, the point is that it definitely is not a common occurrence with them (whatever happened). Besides, if you don't like B&H, like I said, there are plenty of other authorized dealers out there to purchase from. Don't use one instance from one company as an excuse to go and buy some grey market 'garbage' to save a few bucks on eBay.... or, do... at your own risk.

Jason
 
The EX1 looks very toy-like, with all the tiny little buttons and dials--far too many for my tastes. Just so many more flimsy plastic things to get stuck, come off or break.
 
VenezuelanD said:
I thought the whole thing was straightened out, is this the incident you are talking about marketmd?

Edit: never mind I found the thread you are talking about.
Click to expand...

Well now you know as much as I did.

Not trying to bash B&H btw, but even one gray market cam is a big hassle for any DVXuser. I'm sure they will resolve it quickly. I mentioned eBay for those who want used for cheaper to keep some cash in reserve, and because I have had excellent luck there, when you can buy from directors or dp's who tend to baby them.
 
What a quote from that Sony review...

"Some people accuse me of flying the Sony flag a bit too often, but I have good reason to. Sony just gets it right time and time again, not only with camcorders and high end production gear, but with hi-fi, studio recording equipment, DVD players etc. They have a reputation for quality, reliability and products that do the job year-in-year-out. If they did not, I would use someone else's gear; I really don't care who's name is on the side of the camcorder."

Sheesh!
 
Here's a big caveat emptor for reviews... if the reviewer is "fortunate enough to have this camcorder to myself for a whole seven days" then maybe he's in bed with the manufacturer.
Do you really think Sony is going to let someone honest be one of the first to talk about it online? He doesn't get to anything negative until a few dozen paragraphs down.
It sounds like the focus assist is nice... I'm still hopeful that firmware could add an option like that for the HVX.

I love some of these quotes!
"Personally I really like this, it is reassuringly heavy" - hmmmm
"The PMW-EX1 feels pretty though" - It feels pretty?
"You can’t have everything" - a great way to justify any shortcomings, really
"a Full Auto button, one I doubt I’ll ever use personally" - because I'm faaar to good to ever admit to shooting on auto
"In fact from the side the SxS cards are actually smaller than CF cards" - and from the top they are about double-sized
"This weighty battery balances the EX1 nicely; without it the camera is a tad front-heavy due to the quality Fujinon HD 1/2" optics" - The lens is heavy, fortunately the battery is too?
 
As one who reviews products, I can tell you that it is often important to indicate that the vendor has supplied the product. Vendors want favorable reviews. Vendors publish "reviewers guides" which are helpful and yes, self-promoting. Vendors make all kinds of help and tech support available. Ultimately, the role of the reviewer is to use the product and write the most accurate and honest assessment possible. There are times where glowing praise is indicated. There are ways of expressing negatives, and hopefully those are constructive.

I definitely have had situations where I have offered critiques of a product which the vendor pointed out were the result of my error or misunderstanding. I have also had several situations where the vendor requested of my editors that they remove certain references or statements. My editors have stood behind me, even when that vendor is an advertiser.

We all have our preferences. I am very clearly inclined toward Panasonic. Could I review a Sony camera objectively? I would hope so. Could I offer up something negative about a Panasonic product? Yes, if I were to see it that way.

Having said all of that, I would not consider that Sony review to be totally objective or even an example of what I consider to be a good product review of a camera.

By the way, as far as critiques of products-- vendors sometimes need to hear those and sometimes even want to hear it. No product is perfect and vendors do strive to make improvements based upon the assessments of both users and reviewers.

Yes-- take all reviews (including mine) as the views of one individual who writes from a specific perspective. And please tell us (or me at least) if we completely missed a point.

Ned Soltz
 
The biggest advantage to consider is that you can buy an HVX right now.
I'm not saying you should - but if you're going to try to make a Pro/Con list...

Seems like "not yet on the market" might be a con.

Its been said many times on this forum, but it always bears repeating.
The best time to buy is when you need to.
You can't worry about what is coming out, what might come out, and what might happen when it does. There will always be 'the next big thing' right around the corner. If you're going to use your equipment to get paying work, the kind of cameras we're talking about here should pay for themselves in a matter of months without too much effort.

If you were debating buying a 50K camera package, that would be a different story.
 
Barry_Green said:
"much" superior? We'll have to see. The HVX has a proper manual zoom, and its focus is completely 100% repeatable. How much superior can the Sony's Fujinon be?

Point there; the Sony does have an aperture ring.


Better? Why?

Faster? Not really. 640mbps vs. 800mbps, they're in the same neighborhood as far as speed. The P2 card is 80% of the speed of the SxS, not exactly a huge difference.


Says who? So far the Sony cards are more expensive than the Panasonics. And that whole concept of "you can use generic cards" turned out to be a red herring; the Sony uses Sony-proprietary SxS cards and that's it.


Again, how is this a bonus for one over the other? You can use those exact same discs to archive P2 data as well if you want.


Panasonic does the exact same thing.


Not sure whether this is truly a bonus or not. CMOS in and of itself is potentially troublesome due to rolling shutter artifacts. Larger chip is better for slightly shallower DOF but it won't be a huge difference. And normally a larger chip makes a camera more light-sensitive but the CMOS chips are slower, so it'll probably net out about the same sensitivity. But I do expect a lot less noise on the Sony. And it'd better be noticeably sharper -- I mean, it has 4x as many pixels, so if it doesn't show a significant edge in sharpness then that's gonna be downright comical.

Biggest pro of the Panasonic, that you didn't list, is that the Sony costs 45% more than the Panasonic does, according to the prices listed at B&H.

The Sony also offers some other bonuses, including a sharper LCD panel (although not the flagrant lie posted in their brochure that claims 1920x480, it's actually 640x480) and variable frame rates in 1080 mode. You can get some variable frame rates in 1080 on the HVX but it's more work.

I think when you get down to it, the whole thing boils down to this: Sony's made a P2 MeToo, so they're basically directly comparable. If you pay the 45% higher price for the Sony you'll probably get sharper/crisper/less noisy video, and you'll also have the potential for rolling shutter artifacts. The card prices appear to be about the same; you can say that one is newer (but not really faster; again it's 640 vs 800) but then you could say the other one has 4 years of track record and is already heavily entrenched in the marketplace and at 300+ broadcast organizations worldwide, so... take your pick. If long-GOP space efficiency is important to you, your choice is easy. If intraframe compression and 4:2:2 are important to you, your choice is easy. If recording SD is important to you, your choice is easy.

There are tradeoffs in any decision. There are tradeoffs here too.
Click to expand...
Barry - excellent comments. As a film maker of around 35+ years the only 3 criteria for us are image quality, image quality and image qu... in otherwise comparable conditions.

I saw the EX-1 at a recent Sony RoadShow and am not overly impressed that it does anything better than the HVX202. It has almost too many features. A Microsoft mentality? And the DVCAM legacy is a worry.

SxS vs P2 cards are not an issue - it's a non-subject when you consider the FireStore FS-100 100/160gb as a must-have. At around AU$2,400-AU$2,600 it replaces AU$9,000 worth of equal capacity P2 cards with non-stop recording.

OK it is a good idea with short scenes. But we're going off to India soon on a one-chance-only doco, with a HVX202EN, couple 'a 16gb cards , MacBook Pro, Final Cut loaded and a LaCie d2 USB/1394 Blue Ray extermal burner http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?pid=10867 - gorgeous!


IMHO 4:2:2 beats 4:2:0 any day for quality, although it will be interesting to see side by side comparison of 1/2 CMOS v 1/3 Panasonic. Artifacts - no thanks!

Archiving? Blue Ray 3x redundant. 5x for the ultra paranoid - ref: NASA

It will be interesting to hear your comments soon in Melbourne/Sydney - regards - Howard G.
 
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