Hey Panasonic, what are you waiting for?
- Thread starter marco0782
- Start date
Barry_Green
Moderator
The Canon XLH1 doesn't have it though. Not unless you actually physically remove the lens. If you're trying to use an adapter on the Canon lens, the flip function isn't available.
The JVC series do have it though, and the HPX500 has a flip function for the LCD but not for recording.
Instead of fighting something that may never happen, why not lobby the 35mm adapter guys to make something like this? Heck, the Letus35 Flip Enhanced flips the image for you and costs about half of what the non-flipping adapters do.
The JVC series do have it though, and the HPX500 has a flip function for the LCD but not for recording.
Instead of fighting something that may never happen, why not lobby the 35mm adapter guys to make something like this? Heck, the Letus35 Flip Enhanced flips the image for you and costs about half of what the non-flipping adapters do.
marco0782
Well-known member
"Instead of fighting something that may never happen, why not lobby the 35mm adapter guys to make something like this? Heck, the Letus35 Flip Enhanced flips the image for you and costs about half of what the non-flipping adapters do."
That's silly, I would prefer to have it done electronically rather than having extra surfaces of glass/mirrors that eat up light and trap dust.
Why are you so pessimistic that it'll never happen? I think what is happening here is that Panasonic is intentionally limiting the HVX200 to give the HPX500 extra benefits to justify its price. Don't get me wrong, I love my HVX, but if Panasonic wants to stay on top they need to be more generous with us. The Red camera is going to crush everything in its price range. What if something came out in the HVX's price range that offered more? It's just a matter of time...
That's silly, I would prefer to have it done electronically rather than having extra surfaces of glass/mirrors that eat up light and trap dust.
Why are you so pessimistic that it'll never happen? I think what is happening here is that Panasonic is intentionally limiting the HVX200 to give the HPX500 extra benefits to justify its price. Don't get me wrong, I love my HVX, but if Panasonic wants to stay on top they need to be more generous with us. The Red camera is going to crush everything in its price range. What if something came out in the HVX's price range that offered more? It's just a matter of time...
LuckyStudio 13
The Tapeless One
you cant focus on the HVX's lcd anyways. So save up and buy an external monitor that you can also use on a crane.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I would too. And I've been asking for it for two years. And it hasn't happened yet, and the closest they've come is to make the HPX500 flip its LCD only, but not the VF and not the recording.
So you can spend all your time complaining about why the mountain hasn't come to Mohammed, or you can just buy the flipping adapter and get on with your life... that's all I'm saying.
See above. We've been asking for it for two years and it hasn't happened.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha... you think an upside-down LCD is in there "to justify its price"? Dude, work with me on this. You're talking about an interchangeable-lens, 2/3" chip, multi-standard, HD-SDI-equipped, TC in/out-equipped, CAC-enabled, variable-frame-rate, four-XLR audio HD camcorder that sells for *half* as much as the competition's 1/2" camcorder. I think its price has already been justified, and I don't think the upside-down LCD is a factor at all to anyone buying an HPX500.
Do we want the flip? Of course. Are we gonna get it? I doubt it. Am I going to expend another neuron worrying about it and complaining about it and clamoring for it? Naw. Just get a Letus35 Flip Enhanced, save half the cost of the other adapters, and shoot some razor-sharp right-side-up footage.
Well, it's certainly going to crush everything above its price range!
Of course it is. And there'll be newer Panasonics too. And then there'll be newer JVCs. And then Canon will come out with something new. And then Panasonic will introduce something new. We've been going around in these circles for decades, and it'll continue. And then the Pocket Red will come out, and rewrite the rules for everyone.
So let's go back to square one and get some perspective on this issue: prior to the HVX, there has never been a firmware-upgradeable camera in this price class. Ever. That I know of. The HVX is the first user-upgradeable firmware camcorder anywhere near this price point, unless someone can point out something I'm forgetting.
So has anyone, ever, in the history of $6,000-and-under camcorders, introduced a firmware upgrade that added new features at all? No. Hasn't happened yet, for *any* features. Panasonic did add a new REPAIR CLIP (LOOP) function and 16GB card compatibility, but that's the only user-installable firmware update new feature ever produced on a prosumer-priced camcorder.
So what I'm saying is: I think you may be way ahead of the state of the industry. What you're asking for hasn't happened, and doesn't happen. It has happened on bigger products (the SPX800 received 24P as a firmware update, and the HPX2000 received 24pN mode as a firmware update) but in the smaller cameras? Doesn't exist.
Future models will probably have downloadable feature additions; the RED One will have it. But as of yet it doesn't exist, nobody does it, nobody has ever done it in this price bracket. So I don't expect it to start happening any time soon.
Luis Caffesse
Admin
marco0782
Well-known member
"Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha... you think an upside-down LCD is in there "to justify its price"? Dude, work with me on this. You're talking about an interchangeable-lens, 2/3" chip, multi-standard, HD-SDI-equipped, TC in/out-equipped, CAC-enabled, variable-frame-rate, four-XLR audio HD camcorder that sells for *half* as much as the competition's 1/2" camcorder. I think its price has already been justified, and I don't think the upside-down LCD is a factor at all to anyone buying an HPX500."
LOL, I know what the HPX500 is. I've used an HDX900 and even at that level it's apparent to me that the camera software is very similar to the HVX's. So what I'm saying is that if Panasonic has already written the code to flip the image on the HPX500 and they keep that from HVX users who could get a simple firmware update, they are doing it because either a) they don't care or b) they want to intentionally limit us.
"So you can spend all your time complaining about why the mountain hasn't come to Mohammed, or you can just buy the flipping adapter and get on with your life... that's all I'm saying."
I already have a monitor. This isn't an issue for me but I know a lot of people that would like to consider other options besides the Letus35.
Barry, ultimately what you are saying is that Panasonic doesn't care and we shouldn't bother voicing our needs because it's too much to ask for a few stinking lines of code. Sorry but I feel like making a fuss and I think that if Panasonic is smart they will listen.
"Panasonic did add a new REPAIR CLIP (LOOP) function and 16GB card compatibility"
YAY! They added compatibility with new memory cards they want to sell you! Go Panasonic!!!
LOL, I know what the HPX500 is. I've used an HDX900 and even at that level it's apparent to me that the camera software is very similar to the HVX's. So what I'm saying is that if Panasonic has already written the code to flip the image on the HPX500 and they keep that from HVX users who could get a simple firmware update, they are doing it because either a) they don't care or b) they want to intentionally limit us.
"So you can spend all your time complaining about why the mountain hasn't come to Mohammed, or you can just buy the flipping adapter and get on with your life... that's all I'm saying."
I already have a monitor. This isn't an issue for me but I know a lot of people that would like to consider other options besides the Letus35.
Barry, ultimately what you are saying is that Panasonic doesn't care and we shouldn't bother voicing our needs because it's too much to ask for a few stinking lines of code. Sorry but I feel like making a fuss and I think that if Panasonic is smart they will listen.
"Panasonic did add a new REPAIR CLIP (LOOP) function and 16GB card compatibility"
YAY! They added compatibility with new memory cards they want to sell you! Go Panasonic!!!
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Sounds like sour grapes to me.
Just flip your external HD LCD monitor like the rest of us.
What drama.
Just flip your external HD LCD monitor like the rest of us.
What drama.
marco0782
Well-known member
"Just flip your external HD LCD monitor like the rest of us."
I already have. I'm speaking on behalf of people who can't afford to buy a monitor just to flip the image.
It doesn't have to be dramatic. If you're content settling for "good enough" then don't waste your time attacking me.
I already have. I'm speaking on behalf of people who can't afford to buy a monitor just to flip the image.
It doesn't have to be dramatic. If you're content settling for "good enough" then don't waste your time attacking me.
Hey,
Not to get in the way of a good debate but why not spend your energy on the phone with Panasonic rather then duking it out with Barry. I mean talking to them and expressing your ideas and concerns will get you a lot further than anyone here can do. I've called up companies and talked about features, learned a little about what they are working on and heck they even kept me in the loop but it all comes down to attitude. The comment about justifying prices, I might leave that out when talking to them but it’s up to you.
Good luck I'd love to see some new feature. A firmware update is added value , and that to a product is golden. I can't imagine it’s that hard to do. Let us know.
Anyway Peace out.
Not to get in the way of a good debate but why not spend your energy on the phone with Panasonic rather then duking it out with Barry. I mean talking to them and expressing your ideas and concerns will get you a lot further than anyone here can do. I've called up companies and talked about features, learned a little about what they are working on and heck they even kept me in the loop but it all comes down to attitude. The comment about justifying prices, I might leave that out when talking to them but it’s up to you.
Good luck I'd love to see some new feature. A firmware update is added value , and that to a product is golden. I can't imagine it’s that hard to do. Let us know.
Anyway Peace out.
marco0782
Well-known member
Thanks Tom, that's the kind of reply I was waiting for. I know a lot of people have monitors already or a Letus35FE but what about everyone else? I have heard so many tales of camera and accessory companies listening to cinematographers to help make advances in their products. This particular addition is easy and wouldn't raise production costs.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Marco, if you want to accomplish something, send your request to the people who can actually make a difference -- people like Jan Crittenden of Panasonic.
Contrary to what you may think, let me reiterate: I've been hammering on them about this issue for almost two years now! It's not being ignored, and your "Panasonic's out to screw the consumer" type of attitude isn't really going to win you any friends nor influence people.
There are several things that are "in the code" that I'd like to have implemented on the HVX200. Lots of 'em -- like text memo subclipping, for example. But that doesn't mean it's possible on an HVX. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying that just because the code's written for the bigger cameras, that doesn't mean it's definitely possible in the little camera. Maybe there's not enough processing power, maybe there's not enough EEPROM space, who knows? Only they do. And even if it's possible, that doesn't mean they'll do it, for reasons that only they know.
Anyway -- you can engage in constructive activity to get what you want, by addressing your concerns to those who can make it happen. But stirring up drama isn't gonna make it happen... take it from someone who's been actively trying to get certain features integrated for years now. I mean, just go look at the "hvx200a" thread, you'll see something like three or four dozen feature requests we've made -- and yes, Jan of Panasonic has participated in that thread and is well aware of what we want.
THoff has the right idea -- instead of expecting the camera manufacturers to adapt to the DIY crowd, it's far more likely that the DIY crowd will adapt to the cameras. Cinevate should have their flipping module out soon, and Redrock Micro has shown a prototype of their flipping module.
Contrary to what you may think, let me reiterate: I've been hammering on them about this issue for almost two years now! It's not being ignored, and your "Panasonic's out to screw the consumer" type of attitude isn't really going to win you any friends nor influence people.
There are several things that are "in the code" that I'd like to have implemented on the HVX200. Lots of 'em -- like text memo subclipping, for example. But that doesn't mean it's possible on an HVX. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying that just because the code's written for the bigger cameras, that doesn't mean it's definitely possible in the little camera. Maybe there's not enough processing power, maybe there's not enough EEPROM space, who knows? Only they do. And even if it's possible, that doesn't mean they'll do it, for reasons that only they know.
Anyway -- you can engage in constructive activity to get what you want, by addressing your concerns to those who can make it happen. But stirring up drama isn't gonna make it happen... take it from someone who's been actively trying to get certain features integrated for years now. I mean, just go look at the "hvx200a" thread, you'll see something like three or four dozen feature requests we've made -- and yes, Jan of Panasonic has participated in that thread and is well aware of what we want.
THoff has the right idea -- instead of expecting the camera manufacturers to adapt to the DIY crowd, it's far more likely that the DIY crowd will adapt to the cameras. Cinevate should have their flipping module out soon, and Redrock Micro has shown a prototype of their flipping module.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Most people don't buy a monitor JUST to flip the image, but rather to ensure they have proper focus, which is rather hard with the small built-in lcd.
And I never settle for "good enough". But I also know, as Barry stated, that banging ones head against a wall results in nothing but a headache.
Jason Ramsey
Admin
Sorry to add to the fireball here, but...
why complain about a problem and not just use one of the available solutions or 'workarounds'? The price is what it is, and at the price, there is an awful lot in there.
Like it was said already... the Letus flips. Dennis (Cinevate) looks to be getting fairly close to his flipping module for his Brevis. And, I love the fact that it will be removeable. Use it when you want/need to. Don't when you don't/can't. Redrock is working on something similar too, I hear.
Affordable 35mm adapters being used *by the masses* is not exactly old. It's a fairly recent thing (relatively speaking) that's just starting to mature in a big way. I am sure *most* future prosumer cameras will include some form of 35mm adapter friendliness.
Jason
why complain about a problem and not just use one of the available solutions or 'workarounds'? The price is what it is, and at the price, there is an awful lot in there.
Like it was said already... the Letus flips. Dennis (Cinevate) looks to be getting fairly close to his flipping module for his Brevis. And, I love the fact that it will be removeable. Use it when you want/need to. Don't when you don't/can't. Redrock is working on something similar too, I hear.
Affordable 35mm adapters being used *by the masses* is not exactly old. It's a fairly recent thing (relatively speaking) that's just starting to mature in a big way. I am sure *most* future prosumer cameras will include some form of 35mm adapter friendliness.
Jason
Id have t agree. And from a commercial perspective, Id have to say that Panasonic and any company put products out and this price range that have ability to do X Y Z, we as consumers make the choice on what we want and are willing to pay the set price for said product. At that point and this is just my opinion (not trying to invalidate your feeling in the matter Marco) - we put forth our money and try to make the most of what we have, and just because there are some smart individuals out there that found a market gap for lower end 35mm adapters that give some excellent results, should the manufacturer then support the third party products? IMO no.
Then I agree Marco that it would be a great feature if added and would be of great assistance to those that cannot afford the cam and the extra mounted monitor. But again, these people must make their choice on what features they want, what the market offers and what they can afford. For example theres a camera out now that doesnt shoot variable frame rates, that give beautiful shots. Now someone could make the choice on what they need and say I will skip variable frames and solid state, get this cam, a 35mm adapter and then I can afford the monitor for critical focus.
Anyway as I said just my opinion.
I myself am in a similar position right now - making decisions, though mine are more from a business perspective and are up the scale a little, but still nonetheless I have to make those choices where something may not be as high up the scale as I would like.
marco0782
Well-known member
"just because there are some smart individuals out there that found a market gap for lower end 35mm adapters that give some excellent results, should the manufacturer then support the third party products? IMO no."
Well JVC did, and to some that means $1000+ saved on an external monitor. I know that a monitor can be used to determine focus, but so can a tape measure.
I made the mistake of thinking that this message board was a good way to let Panasonic know what we want. Maybe it would have been different if more people agreed with me, but it seems that everyone already has their video assist or is happy to wait for flip modules from Cinevate, etc.
Well JVC did, and to some that means $1000+ saved on an external monitor. I know that a monitor can be used to determine focus, but so can a tape measure.
I made the mistake of thinking that this message board was a good way to let Panasonic know what we want. Maybe it would have been different if more people agreed with me, but it seems that everyone already has their video assist or is happy to wait for flip modules from Cinevate, etc.