HPX or RED- Vaporware no more, what is the consensus?

S

SPZ

Veteran
I believe now is a very good time to bring back this topic. the RED camera has just been released, people are using it, and the price range is competitive to the HPX 500 (22 000 for a Usable Red with Nikon still lenses vs 20 000 for an HPX with a CAC lens (cheap).)

I know DVX user founder Jarred Land is a RED man himself, so he could probably chime in with his personal opinion (probably busy with his RED, though).

Barry "the man" Green could also give us a hand with this, with his usual in depth analysis and comparisons.

As a potential buyer of one of these cameras- for personal filmmaking and tv commercial shooting- I would really like to know what the experts on the board think. Some surprising stuff I've been hearing, though, make things less of a one sided fight as it may seem:

My own personal analysis:

HPX 500 (Positives)

P2 workflow- proven, reliable, and great NLE integration. Immediate editing and delivery

DVCPRO HD codec- Native DVCPRO HD means availability of decks, NLE support, etc.

Variable frame rates- Already usable, up to 60 in 720p mode.

DInamic Range- 11, if I'm not mistaken.

HD Broadcast signals output- 1080i pal/ntsc and 720p pal and ntsc.

SD shooting- Good for Event coverage, 4:3 shooting, integration with SD projects, etc.

Panasonic support Worldwide. Warranty 5 years- this is often understated, but is an important factor in this level of gear. 20 000 is still a big investment for small companies.

Negatives

Low Rez Chips pixel SHifted to HD- one has to admit the sharpness difference vs higher resolution shipped cameras (on the pro level, not on the consumer level)

DVCPRO HD- A Plus in terms of NLE integration, but a low in terms of resolution: 1280x1080 in NTSC form.

Non-modular design- this is only a COn due to the fact that Red introduced that inovation on the price range.

No upgradability- No AVC Intra, Panasonic's high end codec.


RED

4x + Resolution- 4K!

Records to CF cards- compared to P2, this is peanuts (a lot less expensive)

Redcode Raw- RAW is a post production dream come true.

Modular Design- Constantly upgradable, fropm accessories to software upgrading

Variable Frame Rates of up to 100 FPS on 2k resolution.

Graeme Natress tuned imaging- the person responsible for Natress Film Effects for FCP sure knows how to interpret footage.

35mm sized sensor- Cinema style DOF on the go. No need for 35mm adapters.

Already in use in Blockbuster/ Big Hollywood productions

Cons

Smaler dinamic range vs HPX?- 10, according to reports

Unfinished features set- no 2k 100fps shooting. No 60 FPS shooting in 4k, and no Audio Recording...YET

Unproven company- Big name from other industry heading the company ( Oakley). Jim Jannard, however, has gattered a group of respectable professionals to back this business.

Worldwide Costumer support still a mistery- a small company is a small company. It will grow, if the camera proves to deliver at least close to released specs.

Non Broadcast ready signals- No 1080i/p or 720p for Broadcast work.

Long delivery date- People ordering now should get their camera next spring/Summer!

No current NLE support.

What do you guys think?

Red seems like the answer... But still haven't seen direct feed footage from it.
 
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The only RED ONE answer you'll have (if you aren't already in line for the first 1000) is renting. You can't just go out and buy one.

You CAN just go out and buy an HPX and shoot NOW. For most pros, now is important and they have to do what they have to do.

For some people, RENTING will obviously win, depending on the production. A year from now? Maybe when RED ONE is readily available to purchase and have asap, it'll be the obvious win.

Or perhaps another competitor will have it the shelves with just as many features, something else special, then the entire game will change.

Also, sort of a Negative here (I'm gonna get slain, but oh well): DVCproHD isn't all that great. That's a reason why I really want Hydra. 2k is okay, but if I could have 720p and less noise from the HVX, that's enough for me. Bypassing the DVCproHD is going to help with that noise issue.
 
pathfinder said:
RED = GARANTEED HEADACHE. Unless you're Peter Jackson.

i had a feeling the delays are to find the cure for the frustrations and headaches that smaller guys like some of us will suffer.

HPX5OO = COMMON SENSE

common sense says, unless you're peter jackson who has millions to invest in state of the art technologies to cure his headaches, HPX500 is the way to go...for now.

just my humble opinion. don't hold it against me.
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I know it's an opinion, but you're guaranteeing a headache of the user isn't rich. What makes you say that?

The camera itself costs about as much as an HPX w/glass, records to a cheaper format at higher resolutions. Has exceptional qualities that the HPX does lack (pros/cons on either side of the fence). I can't see how it's a guaranteed headache if you aren't rich.
 
I don't particularly have a time constraint myself for purchasing any of these cameras. I'm a professional, but I also have an HVX, with a Brevis 35mm, A steadicam, tripods dolly, post production equipment, etc. I can achieve very good looking broadcast material with my HVX. I can certainly hang on to my set up and make money and good looking projects for the immediate future.

My main concern is: Would the HPX be that much of an improvement towards my highly costumized HVX200? Would RED?

I've also invested some money in P2 and its workflow. I would certainly like to continue P2 due to the marvel and still failure free P2 cards. However, 4k and 35mm size sensor is just too much of an advantage to ignore...

I would love to see a 1080p25 or 1080p24 HPX footage vs a RED Downrezzed 1080p footage.

And of course a cinema projection of both, but that's dreaming over here...
 
The HPX500 is a step up from the HVX. There's a lot to consider that you're not getting with the HVX, which to some people will make the 10k+ difference easier to stomach.

Personally, I think if you can still make money with your HVX + Brevis setup, and no one's harping on you about getting a RED or HPX, there's really no reason to upgrade to the HPX500. That's just me, though.

RED ONE is a step up from the HVX in a lot of ways, and yet it STILL needs to be considered that it means a professional, FILM LIKE workflow to perform at it's best. It's not too early for me to say that, as with the Genesis, Viper, F-23... all of these cameras require a mentality that oft gets lost upon those using smaller cameras. So, considering that you take on an entirely different workflow when shooting RED, does it work for you??

I'm not here to decide for you. The clouds KNOW I wish that I could afford a RED ONE and would've flown out to NAB so long ago to reserve one of those low numbers.

Chances are, and I'm not speaking for you, that you really just have no need to upgrade right now and you may just be feeling the tech-itch: wanting to get something new to keep up with the other kids in school.

When/if you upgrade, and by that time RED ONE is readily available to the masses... it'd really be a no-brainer (IMO) as to which one to invest in. The uncompressed option, choice to use SLR lenses, pro lenses... recording to cheaper media... it all just wins, to me. It really would be no contest. HPX 1080p vs RED 1080p? My money's on RED. I mean, even the motion rendered from that cam (see Peter Jackson's 2k resolution trailer) looks a lot more-- dare I say it-- film-like.

On a separate note: 2k? 4k? They aren't going to get you instant distribution deals. Mini-DV/Standard Def is still good enough to blow up to theatrical resolutions.
 
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Kholi said:
The HPX500 is a step up from the HVX. There's a lot to consider that you're not getting with the HVX, which to some people will make the 10k+ difference easier to stomach.

Personally, I think if you can still make money with your HVX + Brevis setup, and no one's harping on you about getting a RED or HPX, there's really no reason to upgrade to the HPX500. That's just me, though.

RED ONE is a step up from the HVX in a lot of ways, and yet it STILL needs to be considered that it means a professional, FILM LIKE workflow to perform at it's best. It's not too early for me to say that, as with the Genesis, Viper, F-23... all of these cameras require a mentality that oft gets lost upon those using smaller cameras. So, considering that you take on an entirely different workflow when shooting RED, does it work for you??


On a separate note: 2k? 4k? They aren't going to get you instant distribution deals. Mini-DV/Standard Def is still good enough to blow up to theatrical resolutions.
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That's fairly good reasoning there, Kholi. I might admit the urge to go and order a RED is pushed a bit by the "tech itch". However, I sincerely don't see how much different in workflow would the RED be, for narrative shooting, to my HVX200, for example. CF shooting vs P2 is quite similar. Downconverting to ProRes 4:2:2 would allow me to work like I'm working with DVCPRO HD right now... So workflow wise, there shouldn't be much of a problem.

The thing about going or not for RED vs the HPX, for me, is also time. Placing the 1750 Dollars for preordering and knowing I would receive the camera in April/ May nex year means all early bugs and advancements would already have been resolved and included in my camera, and I would have time to sort out my budget. Also I have to admit that, Following current market price, the camera has a very attractive price point.

AS for the Blown up HPX vs Red footage... One thing is for sure. The Peter Jackson Footage was Post Produced in a top of the line post production facility. I would like to see HPX stuff going trough the same processes (Telecine/ coloring and Da Vinci mastering to film) and see a comparison...

I know, I'm asking too much... But I sincerely launch this challenge to Panasonic: Jan, why not try and shoot something, ( like Peter Jackson) with the HPX, with top of the line lenses (like the Red footage) properly post produced, and post here?

That would surely help...
 
I see the camera operating more like the Genesis, although CF is different than that... I personally see the processing being manufactured in similar fashion. That's to be seen when more of our accessible users over at REDuser report back from full blown shoots.

Dropping your money in line now isn't a bad idea. DXmetal has done the same thing after weighing in on the HPX vs RED thing, and he's gone with RED. It's definitely a good thing that, when/if you get yours, the kinks and ripples won't be as plentiful and the Camera will have been used in the field already, so you'll have knowledge from the user database.

Here's a thought, though: If Panasonic released the same exact deal as RED ONE and tacked on, say, 5k to the body price just for the name and reassurance of an established company... would you pay the extra 5k for it? Or would you still go with a RED ONE?

=P
 
Kholi said:
Here's a thought, though: If Panasonic released the same exact deal as RED ONE and tacked on, say, 5k to the body price just for the name and reassurance of an established company... would you pay the extra 5k for it? Or would you still go with a RED ONE?

=P
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Very good point.

I wouldn't need the same deal to jump to Panasonic, however:

If they brought out a camera with these:

AVC Intra 4:4:4

2k Resolution and Variable frame rates up to 100 fps

Dinamic Range 11 or plus

1080p/i/ 720p shooting (variable frame rates Higher?)

Cinegamma

DVCPRO HD

Weight bellow 8lb (for using my old steadicam gear )

I would go Panasonic for the same price range. Less featured than the Red, indeed, but with that small difference, the Panasonic brand would get me on board.

Their cameras are what got me in the business. I love how they interpret footage. And no Panasonic camera has failed me as of yet.

2k seems plenty enough for film out. And shallow DOF is reasonably achievable.

Price should be, however, the same as RED.

A Panasonic 4K Varicam with a 35mm sized sensor? For 23 thousand dollars ? Definetly would go for it over RED.

But that's dreaming, though. Dreams, however, do come true some times...

Lets see how the Japanese giants react to the RED impact...

Maybe we'll have a surprise by companies like Ikegami? ;)
 
(22 000 for a Usable Red with Nikon still lenses vs 20 000 for an HPX with a CAC lens (cheap).

Id say that's a little skewed, I do understand you did SAY a Usable Red, but the reality is that price will get you a fully operational HPX that fits into many peoples existing workflows/editing set ups.

Im not knocking RED here people I just intended to clarify that the price gap is much wider than that, and yeah like others would love to have a crack at the RED of course.

I think comparing RED to a HPX is a moot point. Maybe looking at the HPX2000 would be a better comparison.
 
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ncje said:
(22 000 for a Usable Red with Nikon still lenses vs 20 000 for an HPX with a CAC lens (cheap).

Id say that's a little skewed, I do understand you did SAY a Usable Red, but the reality is that price will get you a fully operational HPX that fits into many peoples existing workflows/editing set ups.

Im not knocking RED here people I just intended to clarify that the price gap is much wider than that, and yeah like others would love to have a crack at the RED of course.

I think comparing RED to a HPX is a moot point. Maybe looking at the HPX2000 would be a better comparison.
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Well, 22 000 usable Red means its also fully operational. No Autofocus, no motor zoom, but sharp imaging. Nikon 35mm Still lenses are fairly good lenses, with nice bokeh. Of course, for ENG, event Coverage, Sports or even Broadcast live shows this is a not viable option, but for narrative filmmaking/ TV Comercial shooting, it should theoretically work well.

I do believe we should compare. The price difference of the Red Body + CF module is 18 000 vs the 13 500 camera body of the HPX (with 4x16gb P2 cards?). They are in similar price points. 4.5k is a very small price difference in this price range.

I believe one can get a used 35mm lens for the RED in reasonable shape for about 8/9 000 US, am I wrong?

Ncje, how much is the HPX2000 (body only) going for in Japan/Us?
 
HPX500 is a great camera with some limitations from a great company.
Red-One has good specs, but has to proof itself.
Personally I think that Pana could have made de HPX500 less expensive from a technical point of view, but company policy is allways based on profit and not only the profit from the HPX500, but also from other models. If you make one camera too cheap, you have sign the dead warrant of the other.
From a technical point of view imo the HPX500 could have been build with full 35mm sensors and with the abillity to use standard 35mm lenses (just modify or add some corrections elements to the part between the sensors and the prisma(?)), but that would have stop the sale of every other model. Sony has the same problem. Profitmaking is holding-up technogy.
At the moment I would go for the Pana and not for the Red, but that might change next year........
 
The HPX500 is a great camera with some limitations from a big company. The Red-one has great specs, but has to proof itself.
IMO the HPX500 could easely has been equiped with 35mm sensors and could easely has been made to use standard 35mm photo lenses and could easely has been made to record to CF-cards i.s.o P2-cards. The price could easely has been below 10K.
The only reason it doesnot is profit.
You cannot expect a company to kill its own products if these products are still making profit.
So for this year and may be also next year, I would go for the HPX500 and not fot the Red-one, because it is here.......
 
We were in the same boat (having a spot in line for the Red already though) and decided to still go with an upgrade from HVX to HPX. The HPX is pretty much everything you could dream for coming from the HVX and as mentioned before exists now (don't need reservation), and if you've been working with the HVX, then you've already established the workflow and you're immediately expanding your capabilities with little to no shock to the system.

We're still looking forward to the Red, but for niche purposes and possibilities. It brings a helluva expanded series of options quality-wise but at a shift in workflow and requirements that isn't necessary at this point for what we're doing.

I think workflow and end product are key in the decision.
 
I reserve comment until working with the Red, but let me just say one thing about the title of this thread: Red was NEVER "vaporware." Vaporware is a term that means a produc that's been promised and promised and promised but never comes out, and in fact never does come out.

Red met just about every deadline they ever set. They're basically the exact opposite of "vaporware". They announced it early and delivered it about when they said, so it's no more "vaporware" than, say, the XDCAM-EX or HPX3000. Both of those are announced products that haven't come out yet, but they're hardly "vapor". So let's please disassociate Red from the term "vapor" as it's really inappropriate.
 
I don't claim to be any expert, but just consider the following:

Hpx 500 at $14,000 body only
Red One at $ 17,500 body only

With the RED you get so much more modularity, functionality and performance. Simply put, you get far more value for your money with the RED.

IMHO, the RED ONE is born prematurely. They definitely needed more time in order to delivery a "finalized" product. The hpx 500 4 P2 slots is PERFECT providing for longer shooting time. Why the RED ONE has only 1 slot in their CF card adapter is beyond me.

Right now, every Red owner is a lab rat. I think it will take at least 1 year - 1 half years to get the RED ONE fully 100% functional as the way it is intended to be. Good thing is that, I am sure Jim will not let his early adopters feel like they are "screwed". Everybody's cam will be upgradeable and I am certain he will take really good care of his customers. We should get better feedback once the RED ONE has gone out to more users. Also, as of today (day of this post), there is NO DSLR lens footage yet. Everything online now was shot with RED Zoom and a Zeiss prime.

Once in a while you will get a total revolutionary product, the Red One is like the DVX100. It is very shocking and disruptive towards the "current establishment". But, just look what the DVX100 has done to the industry. I am sure the Red One will become a legend like the DVX100 and travel the same path. IMHO, at the end, RED will force and shift the business paradigm and forces the big guys to offer more value to their customers ( 3 revisions and the dvx100 is still a non native 16x9 cam ??). Do understand that the big boys have to protect themselves from not to allow their product to cannibalize each other.

Things will get really extra interesting when RED introduced their pocket RED cam. If RED priced their upcoming pro pocket RED right (maybe ~ < MSRP $11k, and then if they introduce another fixed lens, 1/2" censor prosumer 2k cam at below MSRP $5000, RED will have a huge chunk of the pro and prosumer market.

It is going to be very interesting to see how the big boys (Panasonic, Sony ...etc) respond to Jim Jannard.
 
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I was on the fence, back and forth over which of these two cameras (along with a used SPX800) made the most sense for my next investment. I finally decided on the RED. It's way more camera than my work can justify. But the more I thought about it, the more silly it seemed for me to spend 5 figures on any other camera when the RED image quality (based on released footage and stills), modularity, and economics of scale re still lens options with the RED put it in a totally different class aesthetically and value-wise.

Of course if I were doing ENG work or anything where run and gun, handheld work or tight deadlines were paramount, I would have gone for the HPX500. It still looks like the best value by far in an ENG/B4 format camera.
 
I think according to the reduser.net forum, you can substitute the pl mount on the RED ONE to b4 mount, allowing you to use a 2/3" ENG lens on the RED ONE as well.
 
Dxmetal said:
I think according to the reduser.net forum, you can substitute the pl mount on the RED ONE to b4 mount, allowing you to use a 2/3" ENG lens on the RED ONE as well.
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Correct, but the mount alone is $3,500, and then you are back into the world of extremely expensive (comparatively) B4 HD lenses. So your price difference is going to be a lot more than just an additional $3,500 when you factor in the kind of B4 lens (if there are any) that would adequately resolve for a 4K sensor.

From everything I've read (which is by no means exhaustive but enough to get some idea), the demands of beam splitting 3CCD cams on lens design are such that HD B4 lenses have to be EXTREMELY good and able to resolve the finest details in order to not be a weak link in HD acquisition. Not so with single image cameras like still DLSRs and the RED ONE. The focal plane is a single sensor so the simpler design of still image and traditional cine glass is adequate. Put together with the economics of scale that are derived from the massive amounts of still lenses sold, and you can get glass for the RED that should perform optically every bit as well as the very best HD B4 glass made for a minuscule fraction of the cost.

The B4 route with RED didn't make sense for me, although for very rich companies with existing investments in high end B4 glass, I can see where it would. In such cases, I suppose RED would be a capable alternative to traditional ENG cams for that kind of work, although the post process is still likely to be a sticking point for anything requiring really fast turnaround.
 
The RED one is in a different class than the HPX500. I own the 500 and have a reservation for the RED, the 500 is a great camera and has its limitations. The RED with all the goodies and real cine glass will run over $30,000 so its hard to compare the two, they are both great cameras and have different markets.

Its just great to have all these affordable options for high-end production value and the future looks exciting for all of us.....
 
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