Cees Mutsaers
Veteran
But does it work fast enough not to get irrited ???? Think about realtime effects
ericcosh said:
The best alternative to P2
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Cees Mutsaers
Veteran
name me one as you call it "off the shelf firewire HD" since where I live (the Netherlands) I am not be able to buy one in a regular computer shop!!!!
jrv3034 said:
bgundu
Veteran
AVCHD could be a really interesting alternative to P2 and it would be worth investigating, assuming of course they will eventually release 1/3", 1/2" or 2/3" AVCHD cameras, which they probably will, given time. I think AVCHD is going to cause quite a threat to P2. Sony, JVC and Panasonic have been already experimenting with this new tapeless format with some of their consumer HD cameras.
Barry_Green
Moderator
JVC hasn't, they're the one manufacturer who's not part of the AVC-HD consortium.
RED Shooter
Member
? Huh, the quality of DVCPRO HD is OK if you are not pushing it too hard.
AVCHD is a consumer format. I am sure many producers will start using it
like they did DV tape. The real P2 competion will be RED.
Exactly where has this been authoritatively stated?
Is there an organization somewhere that says that "this" is consumer, and "that" isn't.
AVCHD, especially at its maximum data rates looks exceedingly good.
And I don't believe a $25K RED cam will be p2's competition.
Barry_Green
Moderator
AVC-HD has already been introduced as part of Panasonic's professional line, with the HSC1U.
"DV" was a "consumer" format, but professional camcorders were built on it.
"HDV" was a "consumer" format, but professional camcorders were built on it.
AVC-HD has not been pigeonholed as a "consumer" format by any manufacturer that I know of, and it's already begun to migrate into professional/broadcast lineups (although, unfortunately, not yet with what most of us would consider a professional camcorder.)
As for Red competing with P2 -- that's a statement that makes no sense. That's like saying "I think diesel will compete with the Camry." One's a recording format, the other's a camera that records to many different formats. One could say "I think Red will compete against a P2-based VariCam II" and that would be a logical statement. Or one could say (as I believe David was saying) "I don't believe a $25,000 RED cam will be a $5,000 HVX's competition".
Maybe put another way: P2 is about a lot more than just the HVX. Panasonic's revamping their entire product line to be either P2, or AVC-HD on memory card (sort of a "lite" version of P2).
"DV" was a "consumer" format, but professional camcorders were built on it.
"HDV" was a "consumer" format, but professional camcorders were built on it.
AVC-HD has not been pigeonholed as a "consumer" format by any manufacturer that I know of, and it's already begun to migrate into professional/broadcast lineups (although, unfortunately, not yet with what most of us would consider a professional camcorder.)
As for Red competing with P2 -- that's a statement that makes no sense. That's like saying "I think diesel will compete with the Camry." One's a recording format, the other's a camera that records to many different formats. One could say "I think Red will compete against a P2-based VariCam II" and that would be a logical statement. Or one could say (as I believe David was saying) "I don't believe a $25,000 RED cam will be a $5,000 HVX's competition".
Maybe put another way: P2 is about a lot more than just the HVX. Panasonic's revamping their entire product line to be either P2, or AVC-HD on memory card (sort of a "lite" version of P2).
Barry:
I have looked long and hard for a AVCHD cam that shoots 720p, other than the Apitek that uses a rolling shutter I believe.
720p is in the AVCHD spec, but there is nothing out there.
Love to see a Panasonic 3-chip 720p AVCHD that goes at the high end 16 mbps.
Trying to locate a good b roll AVCHD cam for the HVX200.
I have looked long and hard for a AVCHD cam that shoots 720p, other than the Apitek that uses a rolling shutter I believe.
720p is in the AVCHD spec, but there is nothing out there.
Love to see a Panasonic 3-chip 720p AVCHD that goes at the high end 16 mbps.
Trying to locate a good b roll AVCHD cam for the HVX200.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I haven't seen any 720p AVC-HD yet. That Sanyo Xacti is the closest thing I've found, and whether it's AVC-HD or not is a source of confusion. It's 1080i and 720/60p using an AVC codec, but there's confusion over whether it's AVC-HD or its own implementation of AVC/h.264.
The rolling shutter is death for slow frame rates; 24p+rolling shutter = bad. For faster frame rates it's not as much of an issue; 720/60p might be okay. The wobbling on the HV20 is less noticeable in 60i than it is in 24p, and that's logical.
I really wish Panasonic would have put 24p in that little HSC1U; it makes a pretty picture and it has the tweaked gamma and color to match the HVX, but it's 60i-only which kind of rules it out, plus the emphasis was on tiny size so manual controls and mic input and such weren't high on the list.
The rolling shutter is death for slow frame rates; 24p+rolling shutter = bad. For faster frame rates it's not as much of an issue; 720/60p might be okay. The wobbling on the HV20 is less noticeable in 60i than it is in 24p, and that's logical.
I really wish Panasonic would have put 24p in that little HSC1U; it makes a pretty picture and it has the tweaked gamma and color to match the HVX, but it's 60i-only which kind of rules it out, plus the emphasis was on tiny size so manual controls and mic input and such weren't high on the list.
RED Shooter
Member
The Apitek is a POS. I had one - the video was OK but was
uneditable. About the only place it would play back was
in the camera. The LCD quit working and I sent it back to get
fixed. That was 6 weeks ago. I would stay away from the Apitek.
And I would imagine AVCHD will really be a pain to edit. Much more
so than HDV.
augenblick
Well-known member
O.K. guys
There are two flavors of AVCHD: Consumer and Pro.
The consumer AVCHD that can be seen in various cameras is a "Long GOP IPB-ish" format like the good old MPEG 2 we know from DVD's. It is not even as close as good as HDV when it comes to picture quality, especially when movement is involved. So you'd better think twice before buying one to back up your HVX. And it is very hard to edit too.
The Pro format on the other hand is a Intraframe only format that goes up to 100MBit/s for highest quality. At 50MBit/s it's comparable to DVCPRO HD at 100MBit/s. The edit should work like a charm because it is I-Frame only.
Peter
There are two flavors of AVCHD: Consumer and Pro.
The consumer AVCHD that can be seen in various cameras is a "Long GOP IPB-ish" format like the good old MPEG 2 we know from DVD's. It is not even as close as good as HDV when it comes to picture quality, especially when movement is involved. So you'd better think twice before buying one to back up your HVX. And it is very hard to edit too.
The Pro format on the other hand is a Intraframe only format that goes up to 100MBit/s for highest quality. At 50MBit/s it's comparable to DVCPRO HD at 100MBit/s. The edit should work like a charm because it is I-Frame only.
Peter
Barry_Green
Moderator
The professional version is not called AVC-HD. It's called AVC-Intra.
RED Shooter
Member
Someone asked about P2 alternative -
HPX500 - Will run you about $22,500??
The 3000 has a true 1920x1080 chip and the body is $48,000?
16 gig cards are $900.00
The RED can shoot with CF cards - 8 gig is about $200?
The first RED's shipped today so hopefully in a week
or so we can see some real footage from real users.
