"Shoot and Ship" with P2

Mike Parker

Mike Parker

Active member
I'm a Fort Lauderdale-based freelancer who's been shooting BetacamSP and DV for clients around the country. Mostly network news and cable docs, plus some corporate work. I cover what needs to be covered and hand the tapes to the field producer or FedEx them to the client for editing. I am not involved in post-production and have no interest in that field.

I'm looking to get into HD and am considering the Sony Z1, Canon XH-A1 and the Panasonic HVX200. The vast majority of my work will be 1080i. 24p is a nice feature, but not essential. With the Sony and the Canon, I can shoot the story and hand the tapes to the client. With the HVX, I would shoot on P2 and then what? I'm not about to hand a client several very expensive P2 cards, even if they were set up for that in post. How can I give them the material, realizing that I will probably never see it again? I'm stumped and any suggestions will be welcome.
 
Mike Parker said:
I'm a Fort Lauderdale-based freelancer who's been shooting BetacamSP and DV for clients around the country.
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Many freelancers have enjoyed the flexibility of having those universal formats to work with. Any BetaSP deck will read any BetaSP tape from any BetaSP camera, and the same with DV. They are/were a freely interchangeable, distributable format. And we all wish there was a way to do it in HD, but there really isn't.

With the Sony and the Canon, I can shoot the story and hand the tapes to the client.
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Yes, you can. But can the client read 'em? Here's where it gets irritating: we're not in that interchangeable, distributable world anymore. If you're shooting for a client who has JVC HDV equipment in their studio, and you hand that client a Sony or Canon HDV tape, they will not be able to play it. Might as well hand 'em a Presto Log, for the amount of good it'll do 'em.

And if you go Canon, and show off your nice 24F or 30F capability, but the client has a Sony HDV deck, guess what? Yep, same situation -- Sony equipment can't play 2/3 of the formats that the Canon equipment records. And if you go with the JVC camera, and they have a Sony deck, there's no way they could use the footage.

And what if the client looks at the tape and says "hey, I've got a deck that can read that" (thinking it's miniDV?) Sorry, again, won't work.

It's a different world. Tape interchangeability just doesn't really exist anymore.

Really, you'd have to ask your clients what type of equipment they're using, to see if any of the HDV tapes would be of any use to them. They might have a fully-equipped edit bay with all the appropriate decks, and then you won't have a problem. Or they might not, in which case you'd decidedly have a problem!

With the HVX, I would shoot on P2 and then what? I'm not about to hand a client several very expensive P2 cards, even if they were set up for that in post. How can I give them the material, realizing that I will probably never see it again? I'm stumped and any suggestions will be welcome.
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You don't distribute on cards, you distribute the footage on hard drives (or, perhaps, DVDs). Offload the footage from the P2 cards on to a hard disk and hand them the drive.

Unlike tapes, hard drives actually are a truly interchangeable/distributable medium. A FAT32 hard disk can be read by any computer out there, whether it's running Vista or WinXP or Win2000 or WinNT or Linux or MacOS. Distributing on hard disk means you don't have to worry about what type of decks they do or don't have, because no deck is involved.

And distributing on hard disk is far cheaper than distributing on HD tape, and about the same cost as distributing on HDV tape (a 500gb external drive would hold around 10 hours of HVX 1080 footage, and costs $140, so that's $14/hour -- just as cheap as HDV tape at $14 apiece). But the producer and editor will absolutely love getting a pre-digitized, ready-to-edit hard disk, rather than being handed a box full of tapes that they'll then have to find a deck for and spend editing-bay time logging and digitizing.

But yes, this does mean time spent transferring P2 cards to hard disk. Much faster and much less time than logging and digitizing, but it is a time expenditure you'd have to factor in before you could hand the footage over.
 
For fast breaking ENG stuff (that is not live feed already), wireless broadband using your laptop to upload files is going to become poplular in the very near future.

I know you are not interested in the post-production part, but rough edits in the field are also in the near future...partly to get the uploaded file size down...partly because ENG reporting is expected to be more turn-key so news producers can cut central staff.

Just because of the HD file sizes, I've used Western Digital Passport USB drives to send production video submissions. (I've actually got one back!) They cost less than $100 for 120gb and goes down from there for the smaller drives.
 
As Barry says, hard drive distribution is definately the way to go. Even so you might run into the problem of the costumer not being able to use the files. If they have a tape deck, one can pretty generally be sure they have a workflow set up for processing stuff coming from that deck.

With the P2 files however, they would have to know what to do with them, which isn't exactly easy to figure out, if you've never done it before. Setting up an MXF ready workflow isn't done in a flash in my experience.
 
Barry ---

Thanks for your well-thought out reply. I can certainly see the workflow advantages of P2 cards when everything remains in-house. It's when one is dealing with clients who want to do their own post that the problems develop.

If I shoot on P2 and then dub everything over to a hard drive, the first issue is the time it takes to do the file transfers. Frequently a field producer will fly in for the day, we'll shoot a story and he or she will make a mad dash to the airport to catch a flight back to NY or LA. With tape I can hand them the product and they're good to go.

Also, with hard drives added to the equation, I have to a) buy a bunch of drives, b) keep track of who has them and, c) figure out a way to get them back in a timely manner. I can easily see having a dozen or more drives floating around in the nether world. Frankly, that's more time and trouble --- not to mention expense --- than I can justify.

The other big issue is archiving. Most of my clients want the original tape so they can hang on to the video for future use. Granted, they could store the video on a server, but that doesn't offer the same level of permanence as having the actual tape. I have 20+ year-old Betacam tapes that have held up remarkably well. I wouldn't rely on a hard drive to last as long.

While I'm not a big fan of the HDV format, there seems to be increasing acceptance of HDV for news and documentary purposes. It's not as "good" as DVCPRO HD or HDCAM, but it's viewed as "good enough" for many purposes.

It seems that my best option for now is to go with the Sony Z1. The Canon A1 is probably a better camera, but the Z1 is widely accepted and will record in both NTSC and PAL, which is very handy. As much as I'd like to go with the HVX, the P2 card workflow just doesn't seem to be viable at this time for shooters such as myself.

Mike Parker
 
If I had read these comments even 2 months ago I would have agreed with going with the tape based format. I love the ease and feel of the Z1 camera and the images if properly captured are great. The Panasonic HVX is rich and uses a great format DVCPROHD.

Having used both systems this year and after downloading the free P2CMS software last night. I am drooling at the prospects of using the P2 work flow.

However, It definitely makes you wake up and take note of the archiving issues. Barry's point of making use of low cost hard drives is the key and producers and post pro's will need to know this workflow or bad things will happen. (Lost footage.)

I read yesterday, one shooter say that he routinely charges an extra hundred bucks for the drive and does not expect it to return. As a post production pro, I love the P2 workflow but would worry about getting consistent high quality drives from my shooters.

Thanks to Panasonic for this incredible tool that allows me to go straight to editing HD footage.
Brian
 
People are going to have to adapt to the tapeless workflows because that's where everything is headed. Tape is no longer being developed, and I believe there will never again be a new tape format introduced. The last new tape format that will likely ever be introduced for video was HDV, and that was three years ago. It's all tapeless from here on out.

And HDV, like I said before, is problematic depending on what gear the producer has. The Z1 may be the best bet in that its tapes will play on Canon and Sony equipment, but if they're a JVC house you're out of luck.

Okay, regarding hard drives:
I have to a) buy a bunch of drives
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No, you buy one per project, just like you'd buy tape stock per project.

b) keep track of who has them
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No, you budget the drive's cost into the project and hand it over at the end. Hard drives are a lot cheaper than high-def tape (meaning DVCPRO-HD or HDCAM tape).

c) figure out a way to get them back in a timely manner.
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Nope, you budget for the media (hard disk instead of tape) and give it to them. It's theirs, from then on out.

While I'm not a big fan of the HDV format, there seems to be increasing acceptance of HDV for news and documentary purposes. It's not as "good" as DVCPRO HD or HDCAM, but it's viewed as "good enough" for many purposes.
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If it's viewed as "good enough" by your clients, and they have the proper equipment to support the gear you choose, then this would obviously be the easiest way for you to go.
 
I know what you are talking about Mike.

That's why I mentioned two key trends:

1. shipping the content will probably be via broadband. The producer runs for the plane while you format his stuff and upload it either from the field with Sprint wireless if you are on the road and your hotel does not have broadband, but more likely from your hotel room or office over your wired broadband connection.

2. Because that may require some rough cuts and assembly prior to upload, part of the job is going to require investing in an NLE that will do just that.

If the content is really huge...and you have the time and the producer wants it on some tangible media, then I recommend the USB powered drives like the WD Passport. They are lighter, smaller, and tougher than desktop drives...and don't require the power supply. They will fit in the producer's pocket or a Fedx package.

...oh, and my experience is that whoever ends up with the USB drive will likely want to keep it because they are really cute. However, I did get one of mine back.
 
For the NLE, I personally use FCP because of all the "post" capabilty.

However, if all you plan to do is the rough cut and assembly with minimal process, then use Edius Broadcast on a PC laptop. The laptop will also have the pcmcia for dumping the P2. Then just pop the MXFs right into the timeline, clean up the garbage a little, and export it to the file you will upload.
 
Barry ---

I decided to run all of this P2/hard drive workflow past one of my clients, a pretty good-sized production company in Miami. Here is the reaction:

"I have no interest in that workflow," says the owner. "First, I'm not going to pay you for a hard drive that we'll use once. Second, I make a lot of money when we capture video from tape. I charge $100 an hour to capture and log video and pay my assistant editors $20 an hour, so I'm making $80 an hour profit. I'd have to be crazy to pass that up."

And, as he pointed out, all of the video has to be viewed and logged anyway, so there really aren't any time-savings using the P2/hard drive workflow.

Hmmmm...
 
The profit motive is usually paramount. Back in the mid-90's, a buddy of mine who was a big mucky-muck with CNN was checking out the Sony display at NAB. Everything was tape-based. He asked one of the Sony engineers why Sony hadn't led the way with tapeless media since it obviously had many advantages over Betacam or DigiBeta.

The engineer told him: "We sell BVW 75 Betacam decks for around $35,000 in the US. Our landed cost for the BVW 75 is around $2,800. Why should we give that up for the small profits in computer hardware?"

It is hard to argue with that perspective. Just because it's newer and "better" doesn't mean it will take the marketplace by storm.

This is why Sony was less than enthusiastic about the success of DV. They'd much rather sell you a $50,000 Betacam than a $4,000 DV camera. Duh!
 
A post house might not like giving up that profit center, but the producers certainly do. So if your client is the post house, you may have to go with what they want. Even if it's an unnecessary expenditure and an eventual overcharging of the client, to charge for technically unnecessary services.
 
It is interesting what happens when the consultants land and restructure the process.

CNN is a good example. Anything to steamline the costs and to push the work out to the content providers saves the producer a ton. When Wolf Blitzer clicks his remote, he wants to see the correspondent's edited piece. More and more, those pieces are completed in the field. That's what they are teaching in broadcast Jounalism school these days.

Rich content and multimedia are everywhere these days. The industry will figure out the best process over time.
 
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Barry ---

I remain conflicted over the format question. As you pointed out, it's not a simple matter as in the "old" days where Betacam was the standard for news and docs. BTW, Betacam is still very much in use, possibly because virtually every satellite truck in the business has Betacam editing and playout capability.

If I were 20 years younger I might spring for a CineAlta or VariCam, but I'm retiring in a couple of years and I can't justify the investment. Besides, too many of the production managers want to hire "young and cheap" crews, or usually one-man bands and work them long days without OT.

I'm probably going to go the Z1 route based upon my own comfort level. I figure between my Ikegami Betacam, DVX100a and the Z1 I ought to be covered for the next year or two.

Mike Parker
http://web.mac.com/mtparker
 
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Mike Parker said:
Also, with hard drives added to the equation, I have to a) buy a bunch of drives, b) keep track of who has them and, c) figure out a way to get them back in a timely manner. I can easily see having a dozen or more drives floating around in the nether world. Frankly, that's more time and trouble --- not to mention expense --- than I can justify.
Mike Parker
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No you factor in the price of the harddrive in to the project. they keep the HDD.

If youre using DVCpro tape its like 55$ for a 40 minute tape. Or you can use Dual layer DVD's to hold 8 gig cards... for like .50$ a piece. or for bigger productions, use a HDD drive. just consider teh HDD as a media cost. if youre doing a smaller shoot like 10 cards - 20 cards, i d personally buy two drives and do a double backup. this way its pre archived.
 
The problem with that is a lot of the stuff I do is along the lines of a 20-minute interview plus (maybe) 10 minutes of b-roll. I also do a good amount of legal video, mainly depositions that can run for hours and even days. (Before you start jeering at depos, keep in mind that 1) it pays well, 2) I always work in air conditioned offices, 3) I work M-F with few nights and no weekends and 4) it's recession-proof. It's mostly civil suits (product liability, personal injury and medical malpractice) and people don't stop suing during a recession, bless their hearts.

In the first example, trying to convince a client to pony up $150 or so for a hard-drive and housing so they can use, say, 30-minutes of video ain't gonna fly. If anyone on this forum is using this model successfully, please let me know how you're doing it. The best model I can come up with is to loan the client the HD for a week and then charge maybe $10 rental per day after that to encourage them to return it reasonably quickly.

In the case of depos, I use the Panasonic 83-minute tapes for about 1:20 of uninterrupted runtime at $7 per tape. I then ship these tapes to my court reporting clients who make dubs to either VHS (yep, VHS) or DVD. All of this legal stuff is obviously SD so I could use an HVX200's DV drive instead of the P2 cards. I'd still have to run a backup DV or DVD recorder as per NCRA standards.

I'm now shooting a series of mock depositions --- literally 3-days worth --- and thought I could save my client a bunch of time by recording to an external hard drive with my MacBook using Capture Magic so they could plug it into their NL editing system and not spend days capturing it. Oops. Capture Magic will only save RawDV or QuickTime and my client uses a Media 100 which has its' own arcane file format. Their editor told me it would take longer to convert QT files to Media 100 files than it would take to capture from tape. Scratch that idea.

I actually agree with Barry that solid-state capture is the future. It's just not the one-size-fits-all solution today. One reason is the P2 cards are way too expensive. Panasonic charges $900 for a 16GB card which is made up of four 4GB SD cards. I can buy 4GB SanDisk Ultra 2 cards at Costco for about $60-$70 each. That's under $300 for 16GB. I'd love to see what Panasonic's marginal costs are for their 16GB P2 cards. My guess would be around $100. If Panasonic sold the cards for, say, $400 I would be more enthusiastic about them. Eventually, memory cards will be dirt-cheap and we'll be able to use them like tape and hand them to our client for editing.

Until then, I believe that this P2/hard drive workflow is a Rube Goldberg attempt to work around the high cost of the P2 cards. For in-house production it may be terrific, but for those of us on the freelance train, it seems to be worse than inconvenient.

If any freelancers out there are having success with the P2/HD model, please let me know how well it's working. I'd really like to know.

Mike
 
well why would you be shooting deposition in DVCPRO HD anyway? thats totally Mini DV territory. infact i wouldnt even waste a DVtape. i;d do a direct to HDD capture through a laptop to DVD in like EEEEP Mode that gives you 20 hours on a DVD..... i did a few depositions, they dont care what it looks like they just want the name and account delivered accuratly.


As far as my p2 workflow, its seemless, and work like a charm. I tell my clients the workflow in advance and they understand what they need. As they are hiring a DOP for their film with associated gear, they have no problem with buying a couple HDDs for their project. We shoot, i havemy laptop, and i have someone offload while we set uip for the next shot, though honestly, most days we only offload 1 or 2 cards. Shooting more than 40 minutes a day is tough on a narritive film set. If they are FCP users, they bring their macs, and they log the footage into QT files on the fly and back up the MXF's. The last commercial ishot the director had a G5 tower on set and the editor cut together a rough cut to show the client while we were shooting.

What you have ot understand is that the P2 work flow is designed to give people like us acess to DVCPROHD. two years ago, you needed the 30,000$ deck and 60$ tapes and a 70,000$ camera to shoot what a 5300$ hvx200 can do right now.... and they give you a free card. So youre renting you say? ok, rent a varicam, rent a deck, buy tapes..... you just spent 1200$ per day. or rent a hvx200 for 300$, forgot p2 cards if its somethign like a deposition and record directly to disk thorugh a mac over firewire. you dont even need the p2 card. Yea for US working with p2 is expensive, but this is a REAL codec thats supported by post houses and is used in the news world for on air broadcast. It even gives you DVCpro50 as an option. This is the trade off for what youre working with. Other makers went with the GOP HDV system. Sure its "cheap" but its got its flaws as well, compressed audio, highly compressed image, temporal artifacting, variable resolutions, ..... though its goodenough for most. This is the tradeoff they made for "cheap". Panasonic chose a route thats a little more expensive, but provides us with 6 shooting formats and a like 3 dozen shooting modes. Look at the forrest form the trees, there is areason the HVX 200 has a rabid following. i wouldnt trade it for anyhting short of, you guessed it another p2 camera. The hpx500 is a miracle as well. 2/3" benefits, with the relativly low cost of workgin with p2 cards.

Give credit where credit is due. the p2 card itself is a small raid array what takes a huge amount of engineering to make reliable and suitable for pro use. that swhy its "expensive" but its also reuseable and mine have paid for themselves 10x over. By next year the 32 will be out for the same price as a 16 is now, then the 64 will be out for the same price as a 32 and so on.... The dream card, the 128 will be here soon enough. and that will eliminate most of the price/shoot time ratio concerns. You cant really have everything in one machine. its not possible wihtout costing 35,000$ there is a reason the varicam/Cinealta/HPX3000 is so expensive. it gives you everything you want.
 
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