Is there a loss of quality from MXF to MOV

H

HKF

New member
When using the Log & Transfer in Final Cut Pro 6, is there any loss of data/quality with the exception of lost P2 metadata?
I will be shooting hundreds of hours worth of footage, at DVCPRO HD 720 24pN.
Editing at this point will be minimal - the main purpose would be to archive the material. However, if there is absolutely no loss in the quality of the video & audio, I would prefer to save it as a quicktime file as it can be viewed by others on PCs and Macs. Although MXF can be viewed via the P2 viewer on the PC, there seem to be only paid software for the Mac. Also it would be nice to have a master copy that is ready for editing if so desired - ideally one could keep copies in each but that will double the cost of storage which will already be considerable.

I keep reading conflicitng accounts regarding this issue and that is why I am hoping for clarification. For instance, Art Aldrich in his "USING P2 HD WITH FINAL CUT PRO" listed at Panasonic's Support & Resources for the HVX200 states "The current version of Final Cut Pro does not directly support the MXF data format. Using FCP to ingest P2 clips will create a copy of your footage that has been translated into a Quicktime movie. There is no loss of quality. Final Cut Pro is just saving the MXF as a Quicktime file without the P2 metadata"

On other websites I have come across mention that there is definately loss of quality in the transfer.

Thank you for your assistance.
 
no loss in quality whatsoever. you just lose the metadata from the cam which has no purpose to most people anyway. same exact image data rewrapped as quicktime. i don't even save my p2 dumps once i have converted to qt and made a backup of the quicktime files on a separate drive.
 
Most people who have quality issues generally are saving as a compressed format to save storage space instead of uncompressed/lossless. Compression always means loss. Don't do it to any footage file but your delivery file unless you're purposely degrading footage.
 
HKF said:
When using the Log & Transfer in Final Cut Pro 6, is there any loss of data/quality with the exception of lost P2 metadata?
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No, lost metadata is the only issue.

I would prefer to save it as a quicktime file as it can be viewed by others on PCs and Macs.
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No no no! You're thinking backwards here. MXF is a much more interchangeable, future-proof format. PCs can't even read DVCPRO-HD quicktime files! The quicktimes you make with FCP are Mac-exclusive.

Although MXF can be viewed via the P2 viewer on the PC, there seem to be only paid software for the Mac.
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MXF can be viewed by Avid XPress Pro HD, Avid Liquid, Avid NewsCutter, by Windows Media Player, by EDIUS, by P2 Viewer, by SpeedEdit, by Vegas or Premiere when using Raylight -- MXF can be read by basically every serious editing program out there.

By comparison, DVCPRO-HD quicktime files can only be read on Windows by Avid and EDIUS. No other PC software (that I can think of) has the capability to use them (unless you buy an additional-cost plug-in from DVFILM.COM, the Quicktime Decoder.)

As for paid-only MXF on the Mac -- P2 Log is available, as is Avid. And a freeware app (P2 Viewer) for the Mac is coming very soon; it'll be called P2CMS (P2 Content Management System) and it'll show/play MXF files directly on the Mac.

Also it would be nice to have a master copy that is ready for editing if so desired
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Exactly -- which is why you want to keep the MXF files, not the Quicktimes (if you can keep only one). With a $95 program from DVFilm.com (Raylight) the MXF files are immediately edit-ready on the Mac, and they're already edit-ready on the PC.

Someday Apple will make native MXF editing a reality on FCP (surely) and when they do, this whole question goes away. Or, for $95, the question goes away right now. Raylight is so powerful for the Mac, it's really silly why any P2 user wouldn't be using it.

For instance, Art Aldrich in his "USING P2 HD WITH FINAL CUT PRO" listed at Panasonic's Support & Resources for the HVX200 states "The current version of Final Cut Pro does not directly support the MXF data format. Using FCP to ingest P2 clips will create a copy of your footage that has been translated into a Quicktime movie. There is no loss of quality. Final Cut Pro is just saving the MXF as a Quicktime file without the P2 metadata"
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True, but Art is also probably the #1 fan of Raylight too. That paper was written before Raylight came out.

On other websites I have come across mention that there is definately loss of quality in the transfer.
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Those people who say that are wrong, pure and simple.

There is no quality loss. However, it's still a MUCH better idea to save the MXF files.
 
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cheezweezl said:
no loss in quality whatsoever. you just lose the metadata from the cam which has no purpose to most people anyway..
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May seem like that today, but that's an incredibly short-sighted (albeit prevalent) attitude. The metadata can be very powerful if people would just use it...
 
I would save both (like i do). But especially keep the MXF files. You can always just "make" new quicktime files in FCP when needed. But keeping both is your best bet.
 
Yup. It would be like erasing your Mini DV tape after capturing if you were to get rid of the 'P2 Card' backup after log and transfer.
 
Barry - that's fantastic information.
Thanks.

I'm actually going to change my workflow now because of the info you took the time to post (once again).
:thumbsup:

I had been on the fence about getting Raylight - but I think you just tipped the scales for me.
 
Thank you guys for all your responses and especially Barry for your thoughtful and detailed response.
I'm sold on archiving the MXF files and I will get Raylight to see/edit them in FCP 6 until Apple makes native editing possible.

I guess the follow up question is what is the correct/recommended organizational structure for keeping the MXF files. Should each dump from the P2 card be kept as a separate folder titled something like "P2 Reel ###"? Or can I somehow consolidate all the clips by project - here I am talking only of the actual folder structure on external hard drives and not projects within FCP 6.
Also for those who have used Raylight for Mac, is this done using the program or do I first arrange my files via Finder and then scan them for use with Raylight?
 
I name the folders containing the lastclip.txt file and CONTENTS by event, ie. Bloomsday1, Bloomsday2, BloomsdayBROLL, etc.
 
if you ever shot with film you will understand the need to render just once, parrallel proxy editing with hi res reference on the fly is the fastest way to edit a project, raylight rocks.
 
Although it is hard to argue with Barry on this, I believe there is a quality loss when transferring to quicktime. Though I am not 100% sure, I have reason to believe it because of a test I did, which no one seems to have an answer for. Everyone seems to ignore the results and continues to believe that QT does not alter the quality of footage. The test I did was not directly related to the MXF to MOV conversion but it had to do with a QT to QT conversion. QT claims to not alter footage and only acts as a package for footage, which is why people believe MXF to QT results in no quality loss, but if you do a QT to QT conversion, you'll see a slight loss of quality. Try it.

Shoot something and convert it to QT like normal in it's native resolution, codec, aspect ratio, etc. Now take that newly made QT file and export it again without changing the settings. Keep the same everything and dont alter the image. There should be no reason to render. Now gang the 2 files in FCP and do a frame comparison. It's not a major difference, but you'll see some area gets blurry and also colors will change (especially reds for some reason). No one seems to have a reason for this, but I've seen it with my own eyes, which leads me to believe that any conversion to a QT file will result in a quality loss, including MXF to Mov.

EDIT:

Oh also, the loss is not apparent in every frame, so just because you didnt see it on your first frame doesnt mean it isnt there.
 
The scenario you describe is not the one that is in question.

Instead, let's record a few seconds of video using an HVX, and you can ingest it into FCP (which I don't have) and re-wrap it in a QuickTime container. Send me the original MXF and the resulting MOV file, and I'll compare the video frame-by-frame to see if there are differences.
 
If you take a QT File and convert it to a QT file, there could be quality loss, because your computer is still re-compressing [each frame of] the file to convert it from the original Quicktime to the new quicktime.. When you ingest p2 data into Final Cut, no compression is going on whatsoever.. It is merely re-wrapping the MXF file into a QT file.. No codec change or re-compression.. So ingesting p2 into final cut is re-wrapping.. Compression causes quality change or loss...
 
I edit P2 footage on four Macs at work.

On ONE machine I continually experience odd quality issues. It is an iMac G5 running FCP 5.1.4. The DVCPRO-HD Quicktimes as played in QuickTime Pro look like DV25 codec, with a higher pixel count. Capturing using Easy Setup or DVCPRO-HD 720p60.

All other workstations are smooth and dialed!

-andrew
 
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