alternatives to the HV20?

C

c.g._eads

Veteran
Since I've been reading all these bad things about the HV20, I've been forced to look elsewhere for a camera to shoot my feature. What are the other cameras in the HV20's class from the other major companies. Do they shoot in 24p? Or have some 24p equivalent? I'd like HD and am willing to pay up to 2 grand. Thanks.
 
I'm curious what bad things you've heard. (I also think it will help people offer suggestions as to alternatives that don't have those bad things.)
 
c.g._eads said:
Since I've been reading all these bad things about the HV20, I've been forced to look elsewhere for a camera to shoot my feature. What are the other cameras in the HV20's class from the other major companies. Do they shoot in 24p? Or have some 24p equivalent? I'd like HD and am willing to pay up to 2 grand. Thanks.
Click to expand...

The only problem with HV20 is wobbling. It can be avoided and you can learn to live with that. Other than that it is a great camcorder for the price.
 
The biggest problem is the "wobble" effect which seems to make the camera basically unuseable while moving. You can do a search on this site or in the HV20 forum and it's all over the place. You know it's bad when people desperate to validate their purchase are saying, "Well, you probably shouldn't move the camera around anyway". Uhhhh, it's a CAMERA. You're going to move it around.

The biggest thing for me is that I'll be shooting a lot of stuff inside a moving car and for that this camera's wobbling makes it worthless.

In addition to that, read my other recent post. I guess the camera's 24p doesn't even work. Not good.
 
I guess there's some disagreement on if the HV20 is "true 24p". That's being discussed in the other thread. But I'm much more concerned about the wobble problem. I couldn't get the sci-fi film to work. But the other film you posted had very little, if any movement, which is where this deficiency is present. Believe me, I am hoping there's a workaround for this or that canon quickly releases a "fixed" version of the camera, but from everything that I've read (go here for the main discussion: http://hv20.com/showthread.php?t=124), it's not looking good.

I only said the HV20 is worthless if you're moving while shooting of if you move the camera a lot. To me those are two absolutely essential elements that a camera should have. You can't move while you shoot?? You can't shoot while you're moving?? Come on. That's just unacceptable in a $1000 camera (especially since $300 cameras appear to do this effortlessly). Making matters even worse, you can't see the problem in the viewfinder. You have to wait until you look at the footage later. How will you know when you're moving it too much? Or if you can push it a little further. A huge HUGE problem in my book.

I understand that static shots are a staple in cinema, but what movie have you seen recently where the camera doesn't move? And on top of that, one of the biggest advantages to shooting movies with a small camera is that you have so much more freedom to move the camera. If you can't utilize that advantage, what's the point?

Having said all that, I'm probably going to purchase the camera from someplace with a no-hassle return policy and try it out. I'm praying that I don't experiences all of the problems these other users have been having.

Phil, can you list some of these workarounds?
 
Last edited:
c.g._eads said:
I guess there's some disagreement on if the HV20 is "true 24p". That's being discussed in the other thread. But I'm much more concerned about the wobble problem. I couldn't get the sci-fi film to work. But the other film you posted had very little, if any movement, which is where this deficiency is present. Believe me, I am hoping there's a workaround for this or that canon quickly releases a "fixed" version of the camera, but from everything that I've read (go here for the main discussion: http://hv20.com/showthread.php?t=124), it's not looking good.

I only said the HV20 is worthless if you're moving while shooting of if you move the camera a lot. To me those are two absolutely essential elements in a camera. You can't move while you shoot?? You can't shoot while you're moving?? Come on. That's just unacceptable in a $1000 camera (especially since $300 cameras appear to do this effortlessly). Making matters even worse, you can't see the problem in the viewfinder. You have to wait until you look at the footage later. How will you know when you're moving it too much? Or if you can push it a little further. A huge HUGE problem in my book.

I understand that static shots are a staple in cinema, but what movie have you seen recently where the camera hasn't moved?
Click to expand...
I think your assumptions are way off. I move all the time ...film while driving....etc..etc....I have no problems with wobbles. What you need to do is go to a retailer and test one out for yourself. But I have had mine about 3 1/2 months and all I do is move..pan...pan...and I get great footage. You really need to check out some of the work people have done with this cam. Don't rely totally on what you read but test the waters for yourself.

Oh...and as far as "true 24p is concerned" then if one really belives that it is not real...they must also be saying that the DVX does not shoot true 24p. They are both implemented the same way with the exception of Canon leaving out the flags in their footage. The flag issue is a non-issue however.
 
Ian, can you post some of your moving footage? And yes, I'm going to try one out for myself. Still trying to accumulate as much info before I buy as possible though.
 
cg,

I gave but two brief, recent examples posted here: if you want the "jello-cam" effect it's not hard to create: shoot 24p with a very high shutter speed and whip the camera around like a maniac or hard-mount it to something with a high-frequency vibration like a helicopter and you'll see rolling shutter aplenty.

Video or film, shooting 24p imposes its own limitations as far as how fast you can pan or dolly. Your footage will probably become unwatchable for those reasons well before the rolling shutter distortion causes problems.
 
Well, to treat this like it's some sort of problem for amateur videographers only is somewhat shortsighted. I understand that all cameras have limitations and that excessive movement is going to render most any image unuseable (unless that's the effect you're going for - a la "Blair Witch"). However, this camera appears to encounter the problem way more easily than camers six/seven hundred dollars lower in price. That to me is a problem. And one glance through the thread link I posted earlier will show you that people much more advanced than myself in the camera world are calling this a big problem. I don't think it can be dismissed as simply as, "well just don't move your camera a lot". Tell Spike Lee, Tarantino, Scorcese, Spielberg, Paul Greengrass, Rodriquez, or Wes Craven not to move their cameras quickly. I don't think they'd take too kindly to that. On the flip side, M. Night would probably love this camera. But come on, even Wes Anderson has begun to move his camera some.
 
Also, here's a great walking handheld example of the HV20:

http://www.nightfallinteractive.com/sc/HV20/rain.wmv

The fact is, yes, there is a rolling shutter, and unless you're flying in a helicopter it's not a problem. You CAN move quickly. No one will notice a slight bend in the image from a quick pan. Some people have mistakingly posted the "wobble" effect as the jerk that happens with OIS on. This has caused a lot of confusion. Again, watch my short and watch the walking in the rain video I posted here. If that is unacceptable footage to you, I'm not sure what else to say. I will continue to use this camera until I buy a RED and even then it'll be a great B camera.
 
Last edited:
Hey Phil, that short looked amazing. You really shot on that on the HV20? Wow. You must have really tricked that thing out. The production value was so good. Especially that first shot. Post a link to the discussion for this piece?

Regarding the wobbling issue, I only found one shot that would warrant a "wobbling" concern (when they were running on the beach and you were panning with them) and I did not see any wobbling. Did you shoot this shot in 24p? Any special way you approached it?

I checked out the rain clip. And from what I understand, it's shot 60i which reduces the wobbling dramatically. Not trying to shoot down every workaround. Just bringing it up because my specific needs require 24p and a lot of moving car shots (I'm shooting a road trip movie so obviously I can't really get around the moving car thing). There are some sample clips around here of someone shooting in a car where the wobbling was just awful. And that was even with a camera stabilizer. So it really scared me.

I agree that the rain footage looks great however.
 
I did shoot in 24pf mode on the HV20. I did no special preparation besides having my HV20 connected to an M2. The exterior shots were provided by SciFi.com and are actual footage from the show. I didn't shoot those.

The rain clip was also shot in 24pf mode for the regular speed shots. The slow motion shots were shot in 60i so they could be slowed in post.

If you're doing shots that will cause a lot of vibration, like in a plane, helicopter or perhaps a car mount, then borrow or rent a different camera for the day. Or, try the HV20 and see if you can find a happy workaround. Otherwise, the HV20 is great for all other types of footage gathering where it's not subjected to heavy vibration.
 
Last edited:
c.g._eads said:
Ian, can you post some of your moving footage? And yes, I'm going to try one out for myself. Still trying to accumulate as much info before I buy as possible though.
Click to expand...
Here is a link to a couple of them. The Beach footage is with unsteady hands. The other footage is of me driving down US 1, Both are filmed with 24p 1/48 shutter TV mode. One of them I rendered the aspect ratio incorect but you should still get an idea. I'm in no way as taledted as Phil H. but...well....you get the point
icon10.gif


http://www.fortvir.net/gallery2/P3U_videos/Ian-T/?g2_statusId=x5cdabd03&g2_navId=xf7afb53f

There are a few jpgs of how I mount my tripod in my vehicle. I call it my ghettofabulous setup...but it works.:thumbsup:
 
I wish there was an HV20 type of camera with no wobble, no limited manual controls and maybe a black body. All that for about 2 grand would be nice. Right now I don't see any better alternatives in the same price range.
 
Norbert said:
I wish there was an HV20 type of camera with no wobble, no limited manual controls and maybe a black body. All that for about 2 grand would be nice. Right now I don't see any better alternatives in the same price range.
Click to expand...

And I would still prefer current HV20 instead of paying 1k more. I think one of the most important futures of HV20 is it's price. Changing the price range would put the camcorder in a totally different market.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top