24F 2:3 vs. 24F 2:3:3:2 (HD or SD?)

K

KETCH ROSSI

Active member
Hi guys,

okay, so I decided that my XH-A1 is a fantastic camera and I will be purchasing a second one for this first film in process.

After finding out that this camera is indeed producing HD 1440 x 1080 with 4:2:2 color sampling (not 4:2:0 as some one missleaded me) I'm very pleased with the workflow to come in this way.

The question now is on to the shooting frame mode:

1) 24F 2:3:3:2 is better suited to transfer to film simply because it discards the 3:3 adjacent frames.

Now is this method of recording only possible in SD 16x9 mode?

Is the HD 24F 2:3 less suited then?

Is something that I'm not understanding in the manual?

Is it true that 2:3:3:2 is less down-converted by the pulldown method?

At end witch is the best way to record to transfer to film?

Thanks for your help before in the other thread witch made me decide to not only keep my XH-A1 for my upcoming film project, but it made made sure of this camera to buy a second one.

Again thanks for any input and clarifications on this matter.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com
 
If you're recording on tape, it's 4:2:0. You only get 4:2:2 if you record the outputs of the analog component connectors.

There is no pulldown used when recording HD in the XHA1. 24F doesn't use 2:3 or 2:3:3:2. It records each frame individually, discretely, with no pulldown employed at all. Pulldown only enters the equation if you're shooting standard-def DV, but all HDV recording is 2:3:3:2.

Actually, if you did record the uncompressed analog outputs, you'd be dealing with pulldown at that point, as the analog outputs are 1080/60i with the 24p frames embedded into a 60i data stream using 2:3 pulldown.

But if you're recording to tape, all that goes away, and you have 24 distinct frames recorded (albeit with 4:2:0 color).
 
Hi Barry,

my confusion started because Canon it not mentions 4:2:0 it only states that the new Digic II has a 4:2:2 color sampling no mention anywere about 4:2:0.

So if I record directly to a FS-C via firewire will I get 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 at 1440 x 1080i 24F.

Thanks again.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
 
You will get 4:2:0 when recording to the FS-C.

All internal processing by the DIGIC is done in 4:2:2, but the HDV recording format is incapable of recording 4:2:2. So the internal processing is 4:2:2 (which is why the uncompressed output can be 4:2:2) but when it goes to record, or goes out the firewire port, it's cut down to 4:2:0.
 
So if I can only record

A) XH-A1 - 1440 x 1080 4:2:0 via firewire compressed,

B) XH-A1 - 1440 x 1080 4:2:2 via component compressed out,

C) XH-G1 - 1920 X 1080 4:2:2 via HD-SDI uncompressed out.


Now 100% as the best, can you rate the different workflows please?

Thanks.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
 
Ketch, I have read a couple of posts and I just have to ask if you have tested any footage yet with this camera. Sure HDV is 4:2:0, but it's not really a bad thing with the A1. I have shot lots of footage with the A1 that I have color corrected to death and it has come out looking beautiful. What I am trying to say is don't get caught up in the numbers game, All cameras under the $10,000 range pretty much look the same, and that slight gain that you get by capturing uncompressed does not make up for the horrible workflow that you will have to endure working with uncompressed footage.
Here is a trailer to a film that I shot with the A1 and the Cinevate brevis a little while back, and this has been fairly heavily color corrected, you might be surprised what Canon has been able to accomplish with the HDV codec.

Trailer TEST 5.wmv
 
Yes it is exactly the ansewr I was looking for.

See I reserved 3 RED cameras for a large project but as I have them not, I want to produce my first film any way and obviousli the investors are not to dich out money for a simple HD shoot after seeng the RED camera specs, also this will be a one camera shoot(or2) so I do not have the money to pay the experts(not as much) so I'm tryng to know out of this little ones the best way to record.

And if some one with expirience and true knolege tells me the bottom line I will more then happy.

As I mentioned in my prior post in a scale wich metod used will produce wich resolts.

I did test this camera by it self and with 35mm adapter the sgpro and the M2(my favored and getting one) the camera is just great, now as I have to get a second one for beyhond the scene I can get a second A1 or if the final image out of a 4:2:2(especially uncompressed) is so so much better and definatelly warted spending tryple the money(camera +aja ioHD) and on top the fact of thetering uor self to a cable + computer limiting a bit your shooting or makin it more expensive and complecated, but if all and all again the image is warted in the professional expirence of those that do know, then I spend the extra money and deal with the added workflow.

But if the gain si minimal then I save money and time and complecate my shooting much much less.

Thanks

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
Note: I also posted on REDuser about gladly helping with what I have as far as equipment for the LA shoot of #8 ecc. Trailer, lights, generators ecc.
 
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The article below explains that:

HD video will eventually be subsampled to 4:2:0 when the final HD product is distributed over the air, cable, satellite, or on optical disc. Bottom line, there is little reason for HDV shooters to worry about any of the issues raised by those who shoot formats that do not employ MPEG-2 compression.

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/hdhdv/much_720p24_pt3/

Also info on Canon 24F:

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/hdhdv/depth/hdvwork_10102005/

http://digitalcontentproducer.com/e-newsletters/hdvatwork_03132006/
 
Thanks,

great articles an very explanatory.

At times I fill as if I'm a little kid, mom what is that? mom can I have that? mom how do you use that?

But at times I just fill that my curiosity gets me closer and closer to what I want, knowlege and no how so I can put my visions in to film.

Thanks again to you and every one that very patientely continues to responde to my posts.

One more issue out of the way and a one more XH-A1 this way to finally shoot my first film.

Ciao,

KETCH ROSSI
www.KETCHFRAME.com
 
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