I have a HV20 and I'll show you my wobbling... (I guess this is it) :)

I own a Sony V1U. I noticed you were curious if that camera has the same issues that the canon does because of CMOS technology. I'm doing a test shoot in a couple weeks with both the V1U and the HV20. I could do a camera shoot out. Are you still interested? What would you like me to do?
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The question is whether the V1U, in 24p mode, "wobbles". It's the only other CMOS 24p camcorder I can think of offhand, so I'm just curious if it suffers the same issue. If it does, there's probably not much we could expect Canon to do about it. If it doesn't suffer the issue, then there's proof that CMOS can overcome it.

The HV20 seems to be much more susceptible to wobbling in the slower frame rates, so I would expect that if the V1U were to be affected it'd be at the slower frame rate too. And the wobble seems to be related to vibration or bumping or even handheld work.

Here's how I would test it if I were you; I'd get a comparable CCD camera (like a DVX or XL2 or XHA1 or some other 24p cam) and set them both to 24p, both to 1/48, turn off OIS, and put the two side by side, and try to recreate ShadeOfBlue's sunset shot from the first post in this thread. Put 'em both on maximum telephoto (but try to frame the shot equivalently) and shoot something distant like the sunset. Then, periodically and intermittently, jiggle the tripod handle a little -- as in, trying to simulate the effect ShadeOfBlue experienced with the wind. Then capture the footage from both and split-screen it, and see if the CCD camera's response to the jiggling is different from the V1's.

It would also prove interesting, but less revealing, to see the V1 against the HV20. If you could have all three at the same time that'd really be something.

Another way to test would be if you could put both the CCD cam and the V1 on a car mount or something. In ideal circumstances there'd be no difference in the way they handle vibration, but if there's a noticeable difference that would be something you'd probably want to know about. For a no-budget way to do it you could just bungee-cord the two together and have a passenger hold them as you drove down the road; that way they'd get identical motion and when you split-screen the footage you can tell if one is reacting differently from the other.
 
Barry,
I have a car mount so that won't be a problem. Obviously the sunset is not a big deal. I may have access to the HVX200. Would that be an acceptable camera for comparison? Or do you think an HDV camera would be better? I'll ask around and see what I can come up with. It would be great if I could get a hold of a few more cameras. I'll ask around.

-D
 
I am getting the feeling thiss camera must be locked down on bedrock in order to get good 24p 1080p footage correct?
Id like to see some links to some dolly and jib arm shots withe the the cannon hv20
Thanks
Bruce
 
An HVX would be fine too; HDV would be fine; any CCD-based camera would do as all I'm really looking at is not color or resolution or anything like that, just the question of: does the 24P CMOS introduce wobble on the V1 also? Or is it a uniquely HV20 attribute?
 
Bruce Morgan said:
I am getting the feeling thiss camera must be locked down on bedrock in order to get good 24p 1080p footage correct?
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No, not at all, I'm sure it would do extremely well on a dolly or jib. The issue appears (APPEARS, mind you) to be related to jiggling or vibration. It is noticeable in handheld footage, but any reasonably stable platform (tripod, dolly, jib, steadicam, etc) should be fine.
 
cool, I see Barry has explained that further, and he makes sense. When I originally posted I was coming from viewing a video piece my friend did that was commissioned by Volvo. He is big on using cheap cams and shooting low res MPEG video with his still camera, and he gets paid to do so. So that is certainly one level of professional work where the HV 20 would be a huge step up. I am using the HV 20 for something I am getting paid to do, and I am not worried about "wobble". It is a limitation, but everything has limitations.

I think what Barry clarified is that the Canon isn't something that he would trust for any of his professional work, which is understandable. For me, if I am shooting something that doesn't warrant expensive rentals. I have no problems busting out the HV 20 and the Brevis and shooting something that looks great. As Barry knows, it is more about the operator, the lighting, the story, etc as far the piece working or not working.

my 2 cents
 
The references I made are, obviously, representative of my own perspective. If someone wants to use a cell phone camera for their professional work, and it delivers the image that they need, then that becomes a professional tool in that circumstance. I used a Super8 camera on a TV commercial once, it delivered exactly the right look for that spot. But it'd be a rare circumstance that a Super8 camera would be the preferred "A" cam.

I was saying that the unpredictability of the wobble has shaken my trust in my HV20 to the point that I can't see a place where I'd use it on a paying job, since the main niche that it fills (cheap/small etc) would lend it to shooting scenarios that the wobble would particularly show up on. That doesn't mean someone else won't find it appropriate, but I sure don't. If someone wants to use it for whatever (even as an "A" cam) of course they can and they're free to and I hope that it works well for them. If I was doing a 60i job I'd feel a lot better about using the HV20 for something, as the wobble seems to be particularly noticeable at the 24p/25p frame rate.

If the HV20 didn't have the wobble (or if they made a version that used a CCD so it'd be wobble-proof) I'd be all over it.


As Barry knows, it is more about the operator, the lighting, the story, etc as far the piece working or not working
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Yes, so long as whatever tool you're using is delivering usable results. What worries me about the wobble is that it has the *potential* to ruin a shot due to an inherent characteristic. You've got to be able to trust your equipment and know that it'll do the job you're asking it to do. The HV20 usually does so, but until we find if there's a way to avoid or minimize the wobbling effect, shooters should at least be aware of what the effect is and what causes it so they can be forearmed with knowledge and not get a surprise in the editing room,, that's all.
 
I agree completely with you, Barry. I'm sure you can stabilize it to a point where the wobble doesn't show up (much) but the reason I returned my HV20 was because I couldn't trust that it would always work.
 
Ian-T said:
True statement....after all...it is a "consumer' cam....I would have expected there to be a lot of limitations in a consumer cam.
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I stand my question:

Isn't there audio input? Maybe unbalanced audio input but with the right adaptor, can't we have balanced sound quality?
 
Yes there's an unbalanced 1/8" minijack. As for "balanced sound quality", I'd have to test to see what it's delivering, but there's much more to sound quality than just what connector is used to connect to the microphone!
 
Hey Barry,

So in your opinion if someone was seriously thinking to use an HV20 for making a documentary it probably would not be a good idea? I will be doing interviews with a tripod, but a lot of handheld footage. I want to use the 24P mode with 720 or 1080i, not sure about those yet, but can you forsee a problem with this camera and "wobbling" issues.
Sincerely,
Disappointed user.
 
If it's what you can afford and does what you want, and you understand what causes the "wobble" and what the effect is and you're okay with that, then sure the HV20 could be a fine choice. It's a ridiculous bargain at 1080/24p for under $1,000. And it does have the potential to take an external microphone.

What I'd say is: watch the wobble clips from the handheld footage. If you think they look fine, then you'll probably be happy with the HV20. If you look at the footage and think it looks unacceptable, don't expect your own footage to be any different.

If you're going to be putting the camera in circumstances where it'll be jostled or in a lot of vibration, just make sure you understand what the system will do to your footage and that you're okay with it.
 
The camera had been adjusted with settings of 1/250th shutter speed in those wobbly situations right?

I was planning to set the shutter speed to 1/48 shutter speed, plus the 24P frame rate to get a motion picture film effect. (I have read that the standard movie film camera shoots at 24 frames, at 1/48th shutter speed).
If this is my permanent shutter speed and frame mode for all my future endeaveours, especially the handheld footage, do you think there will be much wobbling?

In regards to the wobbling I have seen in the footage, it is not acceptable in my books, even as a beginner filmmaker.
 
Well, I just decided I should test it for myself and got it delivered yesterday. I figured I could just send it back anyway if it was unusable.

Anyhow, I tested it quite heavily on the first day. DIY Glidecam, figrig, tripod and handheld, and it worked just fine. The only time it wobbled was in conditions I wouldn't want to do anything with anyway(Forced it with heavy shaking, shaking the tripod, whatever). And this was the PAL version mind you, which seems to have got the worst problems.

It could happen when I switched target, or something, in handheld too. If I shaked the camera. And only a tiny wobble. Not the mayhem we've seen from Norbert and that helicopter shoot. (From which camere would you get great result by shooting handheld, full tele, from a flying heli anyway?!)

With a heavier rig (35mm adapter, rods etc) on the shoulder I'd be surprised if it would come up at all.

So, the only time it behaved worse than that other, really great, cmos camera(as in, was that a wobble? Playback frame by frame!) was in really shaky situations.

How about the footage quality? Damn amazing I have to say! Way better than I thought it'd be.
 
Hoping someone could help me out with those settings I mentioned about.

rur said:
The camera had been adjusted with settings of 1/250th shutter speed in those wobbly situations right?

I was planning to set the shutter speed to 1/48 shutter speed, plus the 24P frame rate to get a motion picture film effect. (I have read that the standard movie film camera shoots at 24 frames, at 1/48th shutter speed).
If this is my permanent shutter speed and frame mode for all my future endeaveours, especially the handheld footage, do you think there will be much wobbling?

In regards to the wobbling I have seen in the footage, it is not acceptable in my books, even as a beginner filmmaker.
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What do you mean? How to get 1/48 shutter speed? Just set it in the TV mode, or lock exposure in what ever mode.

If it'll do fine at that shutter speed? Mine seems to do great(have only used one day so I really can't tell), but there seems to be different results from different cameras? Doesn't it?

If you're lucky it'll do fine I guess. Buy and test, if it isn't working you could just send it back. In Sweden you can test anything you buy online for 14 days and send it back if you regret buying it. Guess there will be similar laws where you're from...
 
I am asking specifically about if there would be any wobbling in a 1/48th, 24P setting. I think you misunderstood my question. I was talking to Barry Green about these settings prior, I hope he sees my latest question.
I want to know if anybody has tested it using these settings in a handheld situation before I buy it.
 
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