I have a HV20 and I'll show you my wobbling... (I guess this is it) :)

S

ShadeOfBlue

Member
Sunset Wobbling

(if you are having problems playing the mpg, here is a quicktime photo jpeg recode of the same clip)

This is taken without OIS, the wind kept moving the crappy Manfrotto Basic...
The clip is just trimmed from the original and moved to mpg container with HDTVtoMPEG2... Other than that, it's cinemode 25p, f8.0, ss 1/210. Sorry, I still don't have a minisd and I just found the option to show the settings in playback mode... Plus, I didn't want to miss the moment. :embarasse
Of course this kind of distortion doesn't ALWAYS happen. But it happens, specially when you roughly stop a movement. Maybe it's even stronger combined with autofocus. To me, it feels like the optics or the sensor are suspended in some kind of jelly material and when you suddenly stop it still moves a little by inertia...
Of course, that's just a stupid guess...

Other random thoughts: image quality is great; focus ring is very precise; I would have switched the focus assist button with the BLC one (still, it would have been better the Sony way, automatically zooming as soon as you start focusing); there's no MACRO mode, even my old dv has one! if you want to focus while in tele you NEED to buy macro lenses (already on their way).
Ah... and I've got a faulty BP-2L14 that lasts half an hour after 3 full charges... -_-

Sorry if I wrote too much and if I made some grammar mistakes... :P
I'll be back with some other clip when I'll manage to edit something nicely... ;)

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Fra
 
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It looks like one of the lens elements is tilting.
The top half of the frame moves up and the bottom half
stays the same or moves slightly down.

Try shooting with the camera on its side,
then try upside down.

Canon recently had trouble with a DSL lens
that wouldn't focus in portrait mode, but
worked correctly in landscape.
 
rawfa said:
Check this out: http://www.novelconcepts.co.uk/HV20/in-car-shakey/

Why won't canon address this?!?!
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's the same problem...
I'm still trying to figure out: is it a PAL cams issue? is this happening to ALL HV20 but some people can't notice it?
Plus, should I report it to Canon or should I get used to it? Would you suggest me to write directly to Canon USA even if I am italian?

Barry, it's the first thing I pointed out: OIS was off... This thing has really nothing to do with the stabilization system, maybe it's even worse without it... well not worse, just easier to spot. :undecided

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Fra
 
WOW thats very odd. The sunset looks great by the way. Not sure what that wobble is caused by. But as it effects the normal operation of the camera I would be in discussion with Canon. I havent noticed it, though havent used mine very much.
 
Rawfa, that's just plain grounds for giving up on the HV20, if that's what happens in normal circumstances.

How'd you shoot that? Was it 25p, what shutter, OIS on or off? I want to try to replicate that on my US unit.

And can you get ahold of a Sony 1-chip CMOS camera and try the same thing?
 
Barry_Green said:
How'd you shoot that? Was it 25p, what shutter, OIS on or off? I want to try to replicate that on my US unit.
Click to expand...

Barry, try this settings (I think it's the worst situation): 24p, OIS off, zoom maxed out to 10x, automatic focus (not IAF, but I guess with IAF could be even worse), shutter faster than 1/200, iris f5,6 to f8, subject far but with some closer elements which may cause trouble to the focus sensor (in my clip there was some grass). Very subtle movements (I was shooting on a tripod and it was just the wind moving it).

I will try to replicate the distortion too.

Barry_Green said:
And can you get ahold of a Sony 1-chip CMOS camera and try the same thing?
Click to expand...

I did have a Sony HC1 and a Sony UX1 (both with a cmos sensor) for some days, shoot similar material and never noticed anything like it.

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Fra
 
That was exactly how my HV20 behaved also. I returned it but I am still following these discussions to see if there will be any word from Canon before I dare to order a new unit. I could contact the swedish Canon support myself but it feels rather pointless as I recon they will just tell me to use a tripod. I don't even have the camera so I would just feel stupid.
 
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Okay, just tried what ShadeOfBlue said: 24p, 1/250 shutter, full telephoto/OIS off, jiggling the handle of the tripod ever so slightly, and yes my NTSC HV20 does the same degree of warble and jiggling. It's pretty bad. If the HV20 has an Achilles heel, this is it. IT ABSOLUTELY IS NOT A PAL-ONLY ISSUE.

I'll try Rawfa's bit next, I'll put the HV20 in the car when I go to the post office to deliver the day's run of HVX and DVX books. I'll try full-tele, OIS on & off, and on the way back I'll try full-wide, OIS on & off.

Looks like this is the bane of CMOS rolling shutter, and if so, it may be a not-ready-for-prime-time technology. I figure that the Sony doesn't exhibit it because of the 60i frame rate, and that it really only comes into play on the 24p frame rate. I'd REALLY like to see someone try this kind of stuff with a V1U at 24p. If Sony's V1U/24p solved it and Canon's 24p hasn't, then that's something we need to know. But if the same thing happens on the V1U at 24p then it may just be a limitation of CMOS/rolling shutter.
 
I'm sorry, guys, that's not my footage. It's from a guy at HV20.com's (which for some reason is down at this precise moment).
 
It happens in my car stuff too. Much worse on full telephoto, but noticeable at full wide angle, with OIS on or off.

Right now, until someone proves otherwise, as far as I'm concerned CMOS + rolling shutter + 24p = useless for moving shots. Looks fantastic for locked-down shots, but anything with vibration in it, it completely falls apart.
 
I guess I can take that one of my list. Don't these big companies work out the bugs or is it what they wanted? I guess it wasn't really planned to be the camera to replace the DVX100 and other pro cams.

1. DVX100
2. Canon A1
3.
4.
 
Barry_Green said:
It happens in my car stuff too. Much worse on full telephoto, but noticeable at full wide angle, with OIS on or off.

Right now, until someone proves otherwise, as far as I'm concerned CMOS + rolling shutter + 24p = useless for moving shots. Looks fantastic for locked-down shots, but anything with vibration in it, it completely falls apart.
Click to expand...
I don't seem to be having the same issues as this (at least not as easily as I have seen with some folks in this forum). I have filmed many driving shots going down 95 south or around the local roads and don't have any vibrating problems. What I do notice is if i rest my camera on the car door while the car is running those subtle vibrations of the engine sometimes produces the wobbles..but it is in how you mount the camera.

From day one I have taken many telephoto shots with the HV20 and have got beautiful shots at the beach (and my hands were not steady). Yes rolling shutter can be an issue at times with the HV20 but it just forces you to learn to use a cam in a different way. Also, I have only used 60i once but I shoot in 24P exclusively.

What I have noticed in a lot of these vids is unsteady hands and jerky movements. This will definately produce ugly video rolling shutter or not (it's just that the rolling shutter exagerates it even more). IMHO this cam is best used in a more controlled environment (controlled slow panning, steady shots, steady cam, green screening etc.) It is not suited well for fast sports, biking helmet cam etc. Unfortunately it is a consumer cam and the later is what one would expect from a "consumer cam." But I wouldn't say that it is useless for moving shots with the above mentioned combination. There are plenty of video samples over the Web that shows this.

Edit: Oh and I've never once used OIS on this cam.
 
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Barry_Green said:
Right now, until someone proves otherwise, as far as I'm concerned CMOS + rolling shutter + 24p = useless for moving shots. Looks fantastic for locked-down shots, but anything with vibration in it, it completely falls apart.
Click to expand...
OK, well at least we know how that happens and how to avoid it...
Now the ones who reported no problems at all with their own HV20, can try to reproduce the situation and finally let us know if every single cam has the same issue.
I was talking to some other italian owners, one of them (thanks Luca) did these tests ("senza stabilizzatore" means "without OIS"). He placed the cam on a tripod, ss 1/2000, 25p, full telephoto and he tapped slightly the top of the cam.
That's, of course, an extreme situation... it's kinda pointless to use such fast shutter speeds in a 24/25fps progressive shooting... but then we should not forget that, despite the tricks we may use to "control" the exposure, the cam is automatic (unless shutter priority is always selected)! So, if the problem can't be solved in another way, Canon should OFFICIALLY add manual control over shutter speed in ANY mode when using 24/25p modes.
Don't you think?

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Fra
 
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Barry_Green said:
It happens in my car stuff too. Much worse on full telephoto, but noticeable at full wide angle, with OIS on or off.

Right now, until someone proves otherwise, as far as I'm concerned CMOS + rolling shutter + 24p = useless for moving shots. Looks fantastic for locked-down shots, but anything with vibration in it, it completely falls apart.
Click to expand...


Here I thought is was a Brevis issue, but I get the exact wobble when I turn the vibrating Brevis on, wobble goes away when off.
 
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