backup solutions for p2 - rev 70gb?

A

arrestthisman

Well-known member
Need help before I start my next project.

I have heard so many different opinions. I've been searching on and off for weeks for some answers, and there is so much conflict over this I decided, why not bring it back to the forum, even if it has been talked about before. I see no problem in bringing something back if it was never resolved. SO:

Cost effective backup for the P2 workflow.

I was planning on DVD (DL and single layer), and Hard drives for my needs. (Along with online storage, but I would never rely on that solely. But for me I don't have a viable offsite option, so thats where online fills the gap.)

However, I've been reading alot about REV 70gb drives and discs. They are expensive, but not outrageous. They claim 30 year storage life, if stored properly. Fast read/write, and top-notch reliability. However, the rechnology is simple a 2.5 inch removable hard disk platter. I still like it better than blue ray, which is a rip off to me.

For me time is less of a factor than reliability. I've heard everything from DVD being the most reliable archival media, to it being the worst. What is the real story? I know I've had a few discs 5+ years old that simply don't work even though they were stored properly.

The issue for me is that I do a lot of work that needs to be backed up for very long periods.

The general consensus seem to be that a regular off the shelf Hard drive no matter how good the manufacturer is no good for more than 7 years, even if it's not used, and sits peroperly stored. Like an unused lithium battery, it degrades. Haven't experiences this personally, tho. I don't know why this is, and why the REV discs claim 30. (DVDs claim up to 99, and as little as 5 years.)


The Rev media is the same cost as notebook drives, or so. Desktop drives are about half that.

The thing is, you can get a USB to IDE notebook connector, that's buspowered, which would essentially be similar, in theory to the rev setup, except they aren't propriatery, and the usb adapter by newertek is only 25$ rather than 500 for the rev drive. You'd use 2.5 notebook drives insead of rev discs.

Rev Pro discs seem to be faster, and that's it. Since speed is not #1 for my I'd be using standard discs. The reliability is supposed to be the same according to iomega.

And then of course I could be missing out on something else entirely.

I know I don't want to go down the yellow brick road of TAPE. No TAPE for me. I'm not paying 1500 bucks for a drive that will be obsoloete in 5 years.

So, as always, I'm already in dept for all of the advice from the community here, and now I'm ready to get more :)

Thanks in advance for any and all help. And if you don't want help me, more power to ya.

Take care,
-alex
 
I've been dealing with this exact same problem. I'm thinking we'll probably shoot 2-3TB of archival footage in a year. REV just seems like a messy and expensive way to store all that footage.

I looked at the Quantum 600A as a near line method but that solution is 15k CDN.

I think I'm settling on the idea of 4TB of rack mounted Network Storage in a Riad for archiving. That's about 3k. Then a rackmounted LTO tape drive for backup. Basically as we outgrow our NAS we can just add more to the tune of one a year. That way we can wait things out in a functional way until the ultimate solution arrives...whenever that is.

So that's my plan for today. Tomorrow it might be different.
 
I actually think walnutcrunch's method is about the best there is right now. It's basically the way data is backed up in any enterprise environment. This is nothing new and overall, that has proven the most reliable system to date.
 
I've opted to go with 70GB REV disks. So far so good. I'm keeping a copy in REV and a copy in a Normal 3.5 HDD. I think the only way to be sure and to have decent reports would be in a longer time frame.Been working with it for 4 months, and the REV disks are working flawlessly. Maybe in a couple of years I can report on reliability...

EDIT- the reason I opted for them was that Thomson Grass Valley also supports the format, which basically means these guys think is worth it for professional use (They came out with their own REV drive, tough- but can use the same disks.)

And after the flop of Jazz and its unreliable background, Iomega certainly had to come up with something great in order to get back to the golden age of Zipp media.
 
Man, I'm still confused. The problem for me is kinda with the format.

I plan on at least triple redundancy. But I'd like the most reliable media.

It just seems like the rev disks are the same as any hardrive. It's the same thing, so why are they claiming 30 years?

If I bought a bunch of hard drives wouldn't that be the same thing?

I know this sounds stupid it's just. oy. I can get past this.

Also, the NAS system or Raids don't help you against the most likely forms of data loss. Burglary, fire, act of god, act of satan, act of Don Imus.

I'll ask my shrink for advice.
 
SPZ said:
EDIT- the reason I opted for them was that Thomson Grass Valley also supports the format, which basically means these guys think is worth it for professional use (They came out with their own REV drive, tough- but can use the same disks.)

And after the flop of Jazz and its unreliable background, Iomega certainly had to come up with something great in order to get back to the golden age of Zipp media
Click to expand...

Cool, will look at them more.
 
My thinking was that a raided hard drive system is so much cheaper then the Rev70 discs that i've ended up triple redundancy on everything to 3.5hd and it's still cheaper than other solutions. if a drive goes down in a raid i am alerted right away and i swap the drive out and rebuild from one of the other 2 systems (this hasn't happened yet, but of course will at some point).

you can get a norcotek 12 bay sata enclosure that comes with an SATA card for $800 (or less). fill that up with 10 500GB drives and have 2 2.5TB mirrored arrays or a 5TB system for a little over 2k. at this price it only makes sense to me to triple it up and call it a day - until the proper and cost effective solution does surface.
 
http://www.newertech.com/products/usb2_adapt.php

I just bought this for 30$ including shipping.

My plan is to buy seagate internal hard drives (5 year warranty, same as rev disks) and use them just like rev disks, except with much higher capacity.

Am I crazy or is this way better than paying 69$ per 70GB rev disk and 599$ for the drive? Think the reliability will be the same.... better?
 
It all depends on scale. If you ahve a few archives to maintain of some few hundred gigabytes, maybe rev drives are good for you. Media can be found for about 50$ for a 70 GB cartridge if you shop it. I've had a rev drive for back up and shuttling media around to various people and it has been bullet proof to this point, having endured many trips through the Fed Ex system to client and back.

However, once you go the greater storage requirements get the choice of a raid or LTO 3 or SDLT drive really becomes apparent and it would seem an appropriate use of tape to safely store large quantities of media on the shelf..
 
I can store content to several hard drives with confidence that they'll be good on the shelf for a few years without being used... BUT, the rev disks claim 30 years on the shelf.

I'm looking for long term archival solutions. And if rev disks are nothing but HD platters, than why wouldn't an ACTUAL hard drive yeild the same life, assuming it sits and isn't being used?
 
Rev discs do not have any heads or electronics in them. The heads and electronics are in the rev pro drive. Hard discs usually go wrong because of heads hitting the disc or an electronic problem.

One thing to note about raid systems is that if your house gets hit by lightning your raid could be wiped clean if it is plugged in.
 
2 Sarah: That's the thing!

I'm uber paranoid about backing my stuff up.

I've decided on this... In the meantime I'm going to do the hard drive thing, with the adapter. DVDs, etc.

When the 16gb cards ship and make it into my workflow, which will probably accompany a long form commission, I'll omit the DVDs, move to the REVs, and go from there.

It sounds like the REVs do have a great record and great potential. The costs should just keep coming down as well. even 20% less would be much better. but yeah, for the meantime, HDs and DVD.

In the future, RAID 1 and REVs.

I guess it comes down to prioritizing one's data, and right now I just don't need the best. I need to have it available though, so I can quick swithc workflows to meet the client's needs.
 
sarah staar said:
Rev discs do not have any heads or electronics in them. The heads and electronics are in the rev pro drive. Hard discs usually go wrong because of heads hitting the disc or an electronic problem.

One thing to note about raid systems is that if your house gets hit by lightning your raid could be wiped clean if it is plugged in.
Click to expand...

Which is another good argument for online storage, if you don't have TOO much data. Say up to a T. Hosting facilities will have MUCH better protection against all manner of disaster than we will have in our homes, and tape back-ups to boot!
 
walnutcrunch said:
I've been dealing with this exact same problem. I'm thinking we'll probably shoot 2-3TB of archival footage in a year. REV just seems like a messy and expensive way to store all that footage.

I looked at the Quantum 600A as a near line method but that solution is 15k CDN.

I think I'm settling on the idea of 4TB of rack mounted Network Storage in a Riad for archiving. That's about 3k. Then a rackmounted LTO tape drive for backup. Basically as we outgrow our NAS we can just add more to the tune of one a year. That way we can wait things out in a functional way until the ultimate solution arrives...whenever that is.

So that's my plan for today. Tomorrow it might be different.
Click to expand...

Well, i am considering Quantum as a backup as well, i know some companies working happyly with it and id like to get the "next" generation, which i guess should come at the beginning of 2008...but i am really wondering about the "15K" you are talking about??!
I was looking for a dlt4 solution, but watched the 600A too, and as i recall the machine itself is about 3000 Euro and the tapes of course, so i dont know if you had this in your count, but this would never make 15k, even if you by dozens of terrabyte tapes....so am i wrong here on the price or just(hopefully) your mistake on Quantum??!?
 
I just talked to an old buddy on the phone who works at BYU on thier 500 comp cluster.

His thoughts were that the REVs would probably add life and a little more protection due to the drive heads being away from the platter, but he estimated that a hard drive used as a disk, and stored without usage, IE treating it like a REV disk would yield less, but similar longevity as the rev disks for long term.

His opinion was that data degrating off disks stored without useage is bull, possible, but very, very unlikely.

So I'm sticking with my plan of Hard disks in the media safe, and REV for critical data down the road, (or any other scheme that comptes with REV with a similar flow).

He thought optical was plenty good but agreed that the longevity will vary wildly with each batch and each manufacturer.

Just my buddy's 02. C
 
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