The future of HVX

A

arrestthisman@comcast.net

Carbonite Member
With the RED ONE coming out, and presumably, other cameras in that price range to quality ratio, I was just curious as to what people think the future of the hvx200 will be relegated to.

For instance, it's 2009, Panasonic has probably released some kind of revision, but nothing major, with the Red offering 4k shooting, at about triple the price (more, but not a ton more), do you think the HVX will still have a home in indy filmmaking? if not, where then?

This is all just an exercise I know it's an awesome camera and will likely have a fan base for many years to come, just as the DVX will; I'm just fascinated, with digtial cinema technologies moving so fast now, what people think will happen.

I just bought an HVX200, I've been bed-ridden with the flu, so I haven't even gotten to try it out yet :(

I know I'll love it, and the workflow will be less cumbersome than the red will.

Personally I think that the HVX will assume a role as digital 16mm (if you follow), and the RED will be like 35mm. Different levels or prep needed, lighting, crew, etc. At 4k or even 2k+ the image needs to be perfect, as the format won't be very forgiving. Makeup etc. HVX will be great for HighDEF TV for a LONG LONG time. I don't see 1080p becoming mainstream across cable anytime soon. 1080i yes, and 720p, but so few people have HD as it is. the HVX is quite a go to camera @ 720p.

I really wonder, though, how much the RED et. al. will eat into the HVX's market in indy films. I wouldn't be surprised if many stuck with the HVX in the years to come, and perhaps many people will end up with both, using the HVX for smaller gigs, and the RED for the big guns.

This is oversimplified, speculation, of course, and just a thought.
 
The RED itself is expensive for people like me... the indie filmmaker who works on practically no budget. Then think of how much it will cost with lenses, accessories, etc. The HVX or possibly the other HDV cameras will be a better choice b/c of budget reasons (in this one scenario). I'd assume if you had a RED, you'd be working with some type of budget(and I'm not saying the HVX is only for low budget productions). Then again, I'm assuming (I don't know much about RED) that the workflow with the HVX will be less taxing on your system as well as possibly being easier... so that comes into play. Even still... I know people want to work with the latest, greatest thing... but I think even the prototype cameras (Robert Rodriguez used to shoot "Once Upon a Time In Mexico" - George Lucas used for Star Wars) looked good. I believe Rodriguez used the Sony 950, which is "only" 1080p (as opposed to 2K and 4K) on Sin City and I saw that in the theater digitally projected and it looked INCREDIBLE. Clean picture and a crap load of detail.

Anyways, my point is... I guess 4K is nice but give me a good story and an HVX and I'm sure I'll go farther than someone with a crap story and the RED. But then again... the RED and a good story would be nice... lol

-Paul Del Vecchio


Conclusion: I guess what I'm saying is that it's a different market, so the HVX will be just fine.
 
HERE HERE!

I agree with everything you said there davgola.

I read a white paper somewhere on google that purported that only 800 scan lines could be reasonably derrived from a the average 35mm theater print in the U.S. Therefore 720P or 1080p wouldn't be far off.

I just wonder, budget aside, what advantage the HVX has over the RED or other prototype cams.

Possibly, run and gun, low light... I wonder if overall it might be more suitable for certian types of productions.

Also, I understand that RED will have cine-gamma too, but the HVX is SOOO flexible in terms of manipulating the image, in-camera. Perhaps stylized films that don't have a huge budget for post would do better. Also, in a budget-aside scenario, I think the whole process would be a bit faster. Under a deadline I think one would be better off with an HVX than a prototype cam.

I guess another advantage would be directly related to the P2 system. the RED and other will need harddisks to record the enourmous bitrate. the HVX is designed for DVCPRO HD and the rugged p2 cards.

the HVX might also serve as a good B-roll for a RED. It worked for the 90million dollar departed, so the RED... ??? maybe...

hmmm

all good stuff
 
FilmBoy77 said:
how much is the RED supposed to cost and when does it come out?
Click to expand...

There's a price list (including accessories) on the red.com site. http://red.com/pricelist.htm

It will probably take most of 07 to fill the current reservation holders.

The 'big boys' will be impacted BIG time by Red................. the HVX won't. :)

Regards
JohnG
 
John's got it, in my opinion. Even though this has been talked about quite a bit already.... The RED is another league, another price point, another target. 5k for an HVX. 17.5k for a RED w/ no lenses, or anything. You are probably looking at a minimum of 25k for a baseline RED package, and that probably doesn't include lenses. Good glass will run in the thousands. You can get cheap glass, of course, or even put still camera glass on it from what I understand, but again, it's a different league all togethor.

I think the RED is a revolution, and is very likely to reshape the industry. It already is. But, it won't have much effect on the HVX. I could sell my 2 HVX's and all my gear, and still not have enough to buy a RED. Or maybe, just the RED itself, with no accessories.

RED is awesome, but it's not any kind of 'threat' to the HVX.

You should be comparing the RED to the 2k, and the 4k cameras out there that cost 10 times as much as it does.

Jason
 
RED's going to eat the VariCam's lunch, and have the CineAlta F900 for dinner, and drink XDCAM-HD as far as independent owner-operators go. Not that much impact on the HVX.

RED isn't really a mass-market item, but the HVX kind of is. People are stretching to be able to afford an HVX.

The one that's going to impact HVX sales is the little HV20. Not that it'll be a better camera or anything, I mean, let's be real: it's a $1099 consumer camera; it's priced at that level for some good reasons. But there are so many aspiring filmmakers who are stretching so far, paying more than they possibly can afford just to get an HVX or DVX or something... $1099 is almost free. Even if the HV20 sucks like a Hoover vacuum cleaner, people will still flock to it because they can afford it.

I think the HV20 has the potential to seriously open up the playing field for so many to whom $5,000 was a pipe dream. Five grand is a lot of money, a prohibitive amount of money, for a lot of people. A thousand bucks? You can make that in a month at even a minimum wage job if necessary, so it's within reach of everyone.

And even forget HD: the HV20 becomes the cheapest 24p camera on the market by a country mile. The DVX has been the cheapest 24p cam, at about $2900 (after rebate). The HV20 slashes that price of entry... pulverizes it. Murders it. Obliterates it. They're already talking about a street price under a grand.

If its footage is mediocre, it'll be a massive hit. If its footage is good? Smash hit. Even with HDV, even with being a one-chip, even without the ability to set iris and shutter at the same time. The price point is phenomenal.

Now, with all that said, will it have that much impact on the HVX? No, not really; someone shopping for a top-of-the-line 1/3" camcorder with variable-frame-rates, solid-state recording, 4:2:2 color, frame-discrete compression, 4 channels of uncompressed audio, etc. is not likely going to say "y'know what, let's instead get a $1099 pocket-cam." Different customers entirely. But for those who probably were overextending themselves to get an HVX in the first place, I predict they'll flock to the HV20. The price point is irresistible; it almost doesn't matter how the camcorder performs. I expect it to perform well, but performance is almost irrelevant. If DVX100 films can get back-to-back Academy Award nominations, I expect the HV20 to be "good enough" no matter how good (or not good) it may end up being. On top of all that, I expect it to look good too!

RED will change the game at the top end. HV20 revolutionizes it on the bottom end. HVX customers will still be HVX customers in the middle, I don't see much of a change there (among customers who would normally, properly be buying the product that they need; among customers who shouldn't have been overextending themselves, that's a different story).
 
I think Barry's right. I've got an original DVX100. I'm going to buy an HV20 as soon as they come out. The HVX isn't even on my radar (I'd buy a XH-A1 first) and forget about Red. However, if I managed to raise even a moderate amount of cash for my next project where I could afford to rent a camera for a few weeks, then Red might be a consideration, though the Panasonic HDX900 or new HPX500 might be a better choice depending on what post production options I had.
 
In some respects: I wish the HV20 would've been announced before I bought my HVX. I mean, I got my package for a stellar, unheard of deal... just think I could've had an HV20 + some (adapter, monitoring, access., etc.).

Contributing to the topic: The only way the HVX's sales will truly hurt is if another camera offering the same functionality at the same price point... with interchangable lenses hits the market. I mean, 4-5k for an HVX body and interchangable lenses?
 
Barry's right on about the HV20. It's going to kill in the entry level 24P HD market. However, I doubt the HV20 will impact the HVX sales very much. The HVX is a really unique due to the recording format/medium and variable frame rate options.

I'm not sure if Pani would do it..................... but IMHO a 'mini HVX' would be an astounding product in terms of prosumer demand. Priced in sub $3K range it sell like hot-cakes and help further the P2 revolution.

Whatever happens, you can be assured that cameras will get "better" and less expensive each year. :smile:

JohnG
 
I know 2 people buying RED cameras... all i know is i gotta be REALLLLLY nice to them....... >:)
 
I'm keen to see what happens in the cmos space in the next year or 2. Like most here I agree that the HV20 and RED are different markets, but what's stopping Canon (or any other manufacturer) releasing a better spec'd cmos camera with interchangable lenses? Perhaps that they wouldn't want to - that such a cam would hurt sales of their current cams. I wonder if Sony dropped the ball with the V1... subjectively it doesn't seem like it's the hit it could have been.

The only significant shift for me in the near future is more affordable p2 cards. It'll make the HVX a much more attractive proposition too. I've come to accept the background softness on wide shots with the HVX, and the limited p2 recording time (and price) is the only other thing that bothers me.
 
This is all extremely interesting. I wasn't even aware of the HV20.

It almost seems like the entire price range for cameras is being compressed.

30,000 is the new 100,000$

6,000 is the new 15,000

2,000 or less is the new <6,000

But from what I'm hearing from you guys is that the markets are not changing as a result.

Needless to say I'm happy that the hvx and the DVX are not in the planned obsolecence category.

Barry: It is an honor to see you on the thread that I started. I just finished your HVX book! It is amazing. Thank you so much for your dedication to the field.

I guess I am curious about one thing. Let's say you owned a RED and an HVX; what would be the situations that would make the HVX a better choice to use rather than the RED?
 
StMad said:
I've come to accept the background softness on wide shots with the HVX, and the limited p2 recording time (and price) is the only other thing that bothers me.
Click to expand...

What background softness are you referring to?
You do know that the HVX can continue to change focus when you turn the ring passed the infinity mark right? So if you are trying to focus on a landscape you dont just wind the focus ring to infinity and leave it at that. You have to still use the focus assist and tweak it to get sharp focus. I usually find once you get to infinity you have to turn the focus back a few mm to get it sharp.
 
arrestthisman@comcast.net said:
I guess I am curious about one thing. Let's say you owned a RED and an HVX; what would be the situations that would make the HVX a better choice to use rather than the RED?
Click to expand...
That's my plan; I've got a REDservation in.

HVX is small, light, handheld, features power zoom and autofocus, batteries are cheap and plentiful. HVX is self-contained. RED is going to be bigger and substantially bulkier, chained to an LCD and an external drive recording system, using probably still-camera lenses (no AF or power zoom or, well, zoom at all, actually).

RED would come into play for dynamic range, sensitivity, and for shallow DOF (no goofy upside-down monitoring for an upside-down light-losing 35mm adapter!) But I suspect the HVX will be a lot more convenient and quicker to use in most circumstances.

I know most people who don't use these tools can't quite grasp that, they'd think that you should always reach for the RED always, but... I've got a 35mm movie camera too, and I don't think I've used it in a couple of years. It's here if I need it, but mainly it's too much hassle when the HVX is so convenient. I expect that the RED will get used for the JDS film we're doing (if it arrives in time), if we have adequate time and adequate crew... but for DVXFests, event coverage, small-crew stuff, etc., I'd probably still reach for the HVX. It remains to be seen.

I may pick up an HV20 as well. A tiny pocket-cam could come in handy in many circumstances. While the HVX is a "small cam", it's still relatively huge and while it's cheap enough to use as a "crash cam" compared to the RED, I'd much rather use a $999 HV20 as a "crash cam" than a $6,000 HVX. Different tools for different applications.
 
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Don't forget that with the cost of RED and adding accessories there is still the cost of the workflow, which will mean very large disk arrays and possible hardware upgrades and that's not even for editing full-blown 4k. When I start to put numbers together for my kit including the Nikon lenses that I've bought, I'm going to be well over $30k.

I think RED will be amazing, but look what somebody like Timur and others are doing with the HVX and an adapter and then weigh that against $30k+ to get up and running and I think that the HVX will have a purpose for a long, long time.

I'm actually thinking about getting an HVX and Brevis setup while I wait for my RED number to come up. I might even bow out of the RED and wait a while to see how the workflow and storage solutions work out.

HVX is a great indie storytelling tool.

J.
 
What´s about the Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX2K? The sensor is almost 2/3", records 16:9 with 1280 x 720 resolution (Varicam!) for $499,95. Well, on the Panasonic website they don't tell the framerate, but should be 30p...
 
I think the fate of the cam at least for the prosumer relys on the pricing of P2 media. it has been slow in coming and costly. Looking at what Red is doing with flash based media I can only hope that Panasonic announces at NAB a major drop in prices and an increase in capacity beyond the 16gb promised so that shooting 1080p isn't just a luxury.
 
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