AVC-I in future HVX or new cam?

J

John Trent

Well-known member
I was wondering, will Panasonic introduce AVC-Intra into it's prosumer line, and will it be in the form of a HVX200a or a whole new camcorder?

The pro line will have boards available to buy to add AVC-I to it's DVCPro HD cameras. This may sound like a stupid question, but can they fit both formats into an HVX size camera? It's a fat baby, already. Or will there be an AVC-I only camera (well, with mini-DV probably on board, just like the HVX has) maybe called a HVX100 or 300?

Panasonic said no update for the HVX200 this year, but if there's an AVC-I only camera, do you think it'll be coming out soon? Could this be the "unnamed" camera to be announced at NAB?

I've read that 16 GB and 32 GB P2 cards are coming, and I've read that AVC-Intra will double the amount of recording time to such cards, compared to DVCPro HD. If I can film 32 minutes on a 16 GB or 64 minutes on a 32 GB card before dumping it to a laptop (compared to the limited IMO 8 minutes, now) then I'm back to thinking I can make P2 work for me.

I love the Panasonic look above all the other cameras. I trust my eyes, no matter who, or how many say otherwise, and I've never seen a Sony, Canon, or JVC come close to the Panasonic film-look, either in color, gamma, or motion. I'd much rather buy Panasonic then settle for another brand...as long as I can make it work for the way I shoot.

Thank you.
 
AVC-I will probably not make its way to prosumer cams this year.
It will be this years major selling point for the "2000" cam.

The "standard" datarate for AVC-I is the same as for DVCPRO HD, but there will be a "ENG/economic" mode with half the datarate. Probably NOT what you'd use for feature/commercial work.

Gunleik
 
AVC Intra and DVCPRO-HD

AVC Intra and DVCPRO-HD

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The "standard" datarate for AVC-I is the same as for DVCPRO HD, but there will be a "ENG/economic" mode with half the datarate. Probably NOT what you'd use for feature/commercial work.
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I was under the impression that AVC-Intra was a codec that at 'standard' datarate could more than equal the capabilities of DVCPRO HD AND give 'ya near twice the record times of DVCPRO HD. If i'm not mistaken, I've read somewhere that you could even increase the datarate of Intra and come away with much better quality (Less compression) than DVCPRO HD. If this is correct, then it will be AWESOME for feature/commercial work, AND anyone that is working with the P-2 workflow. I'd second Mr. Trent's request on this one. Hopefully someone else can confirm, clarify, or give us a comparison/contrast w/ AVC Intra and DVCPRO-HD.
 
cookester7 said:
I was under the impression that AVC-Intra was a codec that at 'standard' datarate could more than equal the capabilities of DVCPRO HD AND give 'ya near twice the record times of DVCPRO HD. If i'm not mistaken, I've read somewhere that you could even increase the datarate of Intra and come away with much better quality (Less compression) than DVCPRO HD.
Click to expand...
I've read that the 50-Mbps AVC-Intra mode is comparable in quality to DVCPro HD, although it is, I believe (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong), 1,920 x 1,080 rather than 1,280 x 1,080. The 100-Mbps mode (same data rate as DVCPro HD's) supposedly can handle 10-bit sampling. But does it use less compression than DVCPro HD? I believe it uses more. To achieve the same apparent quality at a reduced data rate (or a higher quality at the same data rate) necessitates greater data reduction -- but with an arguably better (i.e., more efficient) codec.
 
Yes they do have a consumer one but it will not do the P2HD intraframe recording that the pro avc coded does. It does a lower quality mpeg 4
 
I meant to mention Mr. Tore B. Nordahl. He wrote before about AVCHD semi-pro cameras coming from Panasonic, I did a search but I couldn't find any mention of an AVC- I frame only prosumer camera prediction.

Bad news though - I did stumble across a post of Jan Crittenden's posted on 05-11-06 where she wrote:

The announcement by Panasonic and Sony in general is centered around the longer GOP versions of the H.264 and 4:2:0 and the consumer market place. At the top end of our product line we will be offering an I frame only H.264 option to the HDC2000 camcorder. This will be on a fairly expensive ASIC so I do not see it coming into the HVX200 level camera any time soon. Perhaps not the answer you wish but it is the state of the technology today. It took the right timing in technology to bring the HVX200 out, and it takes time for technology to migrate from the high end to the lower end.

Best,

Jan

Best,

Jan
__________________
Jan Crittenden Livingston
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems
Product Manager,
DVCPRO50/25, AG-DVX100B, AG-HVX200

Hope it's okay to copy and paste this way. Sorry if it's against a rule. The link to the actual page is here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=56709&highlight=tore+nordahl

Maybe she'll chime in and say if things have changed or will remain the same. DRAT, I was really getting my hopes up again.
 
John Trent said:
IBad news though - I did stumble across a post of Jan Crittenden's posted on 05-11-06 where she wrote:

. . . At the top end of our product line we will be offering an I frame only H.264 option to the HDC2000 camcorder. This will be on a fairly expensive ASIC so I do not see it coming into the HVX200 level camera any time soon. Perhaps not the answer you wish but it is the state of the technology today. It took the right timing in technology to bring the HVX200 out, and it takes time for technology to migrate from the high end to the lower end.
Click to expand...
Almost a year will have elapsed between that statement and NAB '07. Surely the cost of the AVC-Intra ASIC will have dropped in the interim, and anything announced at NAB wouldn't be released until at least late Q4. But, then again, the 16- and 32-GB P2s seem to be running behind schedule. If you can believe the old Panasonic P2 timeline graphic, 64-GB P2 cards should be available this year!
 
I guess what I was asking is if it was possible. The creative cow article describes a p2 card that records low quality mpeg 2 via proxy. I thought I saw a proxy option on the hvx 200 and i was wondering what is was for. Perhaps
 
Chris Lynch said:
I guess what I was asking is if it was possible. The creative cow article describes a p2 card that records low quality mpeg 2 via proxy.
Click to expand...
Not onto P2, on to standard SD:

".......record a low-resolution video copy for rapid viewing on a laptop or desktop PC and on a PDA, .......... With proxy video, a low-res MPEG-4 quality copy of the video (with audio) is recorded onto a postage stamp-size SD memory card at the same time as the high-resolution ................"
 
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From all that I can gather, AVC-I is being introduced as an add-on card for the biggest of the P2 cameras. Not even the HPX500 will be able to use it, you have to go all the way to the HPX2000 before you can get AVC-I. And apparently the AVC-I board will cost nearly as much as an HVX.

But someone did put it in an interesting way today when we were discussing formats for this Iditarod shoot. The HPX2000 doesn't do 24pN, so the most it can store today is 40 minutes (5 8gb cards, at 1gb per minute). By the end of this year, they'll have introduced 32GB cards and AVC-I. Combining those two, the capacity in an HPX2000 will go from 40 minutes to 320 minutes. And if they were able to add 720/24pN through some manner of firmware change, the total capacity on that cam could go to 800 minutes! A 20x increase in in-camera storage capability in less than a year.

I don't expect that we'll see AVC-I on the low-cost cameras. I keep hoping for a dual-format system, DVCPRO-HD and AVC-HD. I think that'd give us the best of all worlds; frame-discrete compression and also long recording times, 4 to 8 times longer. With two 32GB cards in an AVC-HD-enabled HVX250 (or whatever) you could get about 512 minutes of HDV-caliber video in-camera (assuming 13mbps AVC-HD). Plus the HVX already has an SD card slot, so hopefully you could record AVC-HD right to its SD slot, for the ability to record footage on cheap media.
 
This seems like a 2008 wait and see. Nothing coming soon. It will be interesting to see what Panasonic brings "new" to the indie film market (maybe nothing?). I use to like the days when you would go to NAB with cash in hand...
 
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