P2 or Firestore ... or any better suggestion?

C

c3kings

Well-known member
Dear All,

Happy New Year!

I am considering between P2 and FS100, or possibly any better suggestion from some experts in here.

Of coures, the most obvious difference between P2 and FS100 is the storage size. However, for the project that I am going to shoot, even though I am using FS100, I still need to bring my laptop to offload sometime, unless I buy more FS100, but I don't have the budget. (Let me confirm: 100gig is the biggest size of this kind of storage. Am I correct?)

Also, I read an article from a magazine in my country about the experience of a documentary crew shooting with FS100. They said that the tiny firewire connection was quite a scary thing for them, and the firewire connection was disconnected couple times by careless mistakes during their hand-held shooting. Anyone has the similar situation?

Anyway, I would like to know about offload time. I know it all depends on the CPU power, and I read from another thread that it takes about 1 minute/gig to offload from FS100. Can anyone can give me more your personal experience about offloading from both FS100 and P2, particularly the speed, please?

Another point is the native mode issue. FS100 can record all kind of formats but native mode. Though I may use 1080 this time, it is still a drawback if I put my investment to a system, namely FS100, which limits me to use VFR in future.

How about direct record to the laptop? Is it possible? I am using PC.

Thanks a lot in advance.

King
 
If you shoot hand-held, then the compactness, low weight and robustness of P2 media is very appearling. Two 8GB cards would give you 17 minutes of recording time, two 16GB cards 34 minutes at 1080/24P or 1080/30P.

For long recording durations, the FS-100 with a high quality right-angle connector Firewire cable is hard to beat. It is less likely to get tangled up and any tugging on it would actually increase friction and lessen the chance of the cable getting pulled.

In a studio setting or on a set, DV Rack 2.0 HD from Serious Magic/Adobe lets you do direct-to-disk recording and quality monitoring. There is a free trial available if you want to check it out. DV Rack also does automatic pulldown, so you set the camera to a non-native mode to allow the signal to be recorded, and DV Rack will remove the redundant frames for you.
 
Last edited:
c3kings said:
FS100 can record all kind of formats but native mode. Though I may use 1080 this time, it is still a drawback if I put my investment to a system, namely FS100, which limits me to use VFR in future.
Click to expand...

Not true with v.3.0 of the software which is now in beta testing.

It only captures the flagged frames, and effectively will capture 720/24 pNative equivalent on the fly. That means about 210 minutes of 720/24p.
 
Does the new firmware allow for 1080p @ 24fps in a native mode so only 24 frames are captured? I'm assuming no...
 
There is no 1080pN24 mode on the HVX, there is 1080pA24. If there's a 1080pN24 mode on the HVX, I need to send mine back, cause I don't have it, can't find it in the specs in the manual. I'll double check with Matt and Barry, though.
 
Fire store caution

Fire store caution

use xtreme caution when using firestore. A great product. But, don't use in dynamic conditions. Flying in light planes, driving in a car, vibrations cause drive to skip, and drop several seconds of pictures without any warning. We shoot with firestore, and double record to p2 cards, if the shot is missing on the firestore we have it backed up. If the shot is there, we record over p2, Fire store is good for long interviews, jib work, ect....
 
I've been using the FS-100 in fast moving cars and boats, extreme heat, cold and wet conditions for months, never had a problem due to vibration or extreme weather conditions.

Not saying it can't happen, but I've put mine through hell and it's held up great. If a drive "skips", it's probably going to crash. Never had the FS do that to me. It's shock mounted internally, I have been trusting it, hasn't let me down.

Just saying what my experience is, not trying to start any wars. As they say, mileage may vary.
 
Sort of in the spirit of P2 vs. Firestore (Firestore looking better because it sounds like 1 min=1GB)... would an FS-4 work with HVX, or is it just the F-100 model?
 
Personally, I feel a combo of both the FS-100 and a set of P2 cards is the best route to take. The combo gives you flexability, long record times, more time lapse options, etc. As for the FS-4, it can't do DVCPRO-HD. The HVX200 will only work with the FS-100.
 
The FS-4 would work with an HVX to record standard-def DV, but only standard-def DV. If you want to record DVCPRO50 or high-def, then as Ben said, the FS-100 is the only product for that.
 
c3kings said:
Dear All,

Happy New Year!

I am considering between P2 and FS100, or possibly any better suggestion from some experts in here.

Of coures, the most obvious difference between P2 and FS100 is the storage size. However, for the project that I am going to shoot, even though I am using FS100, I still need to bring my laptop to offload sometime, unless I buy more FS100, but I don't have the budget. (Let me confirm: 100gig is the biggest size of this kind of storage. Am I correct?)

Also, I read an article from a magazine in my country about the experience of a documentary crew shooting with FS100. They said that the tiny firewire connection was quite a scary thing for them, and the firewire connection was disconnected couple times by careless mistakes during their hand-held shooting. Anyone has the similar situation?

Anyway, I would like to know about offload time. I know it all depends on the CPU power, and I read from another thread that it takes about 1 minute/gig to offload from FS100. Can anyone can give me more your personal experience about offloading from both FS100 and P2, particularly the speed, please?

Another point is the native mode issue. FS100 can record all kind of formats but native mode. Though I may use 1080 this time, it is still a drawback if I put my investment to a system, namely FS100, which limits me to use VFR in future.

How about direct record to the laptop? Is it possible? I am using PC.

Thanks a lot in advance.

King
Click to expand...
I have been shooting music performances using three HVX cameras and recording to two laptops directly with two of the cameras. The third camera is using P2 cards because it is handheld. The two laptop cameras are stationary and record directly to Apple G4 Powerbooks (recent models) using Final Cut Log and Capture. The data is put onto off-board firewire drives so there is lots of storage. I have had a f success using this technique, however, it must be pointed out that the laptops need to be configured properly. I have set up a specific account in the G4s that is preset just for this purpose. There needs to be a second firewire bus in the PCMCIA card slot to feed the external firewire drive. This means that the new Intel machines wont work currently because they do not have PCMCIA slots. One other issue is backup. When the shoot is over, the first thing to do is transfer all the footage from camera 1 to camera 2s drive and visa versa. Also take the camera 3 footage (from the P2s) and back that up to one of the other drives. So far I have not even bought P2 cards to go with my camera because I am either shooting music in this way or sit down interviews. When I need to move, I just rent a couple cards for the job. I plan on working this way until the price drops (if it ever does).
 
THoff said:
If you shoot hand-held, then the compactness, low weight and robustness of P2 media is very appearling. Two 8GB cards would give you 17 minutes of recording time, two 16GB cards 34 minutes at 1080/24P or 1080/30P.

For long recording durations, the FS-100 with a high quality right-angle connector Firewire cable is hard to beat. It is less likely to get tangled up and any tugging on it would actually increase friction and lessen the chance of the cable getting pulled.

In a studio setting or on a set, DV Rack 2.0 HD from Serious Magic/Adobe lets you do direct-to-disk recording and quality monitoring. There is a free trial available if you want to check it out. DV Rack also does automatic pulldown, so you set the camera to a non-native mode to allow the signal to be recorded, and DV Rack will remove the redundant frames for you.
Click to expand...

Dear THoff,

After reading your post, I have some questions:

1./ Is there any 16G card already there? That'll be great, if so.

2./ What is DV Rack? Can you direct me the website? Also, it seems that DV Rack method cannot do the native mode recording either. Am I right?

Anyway, it sounds to me that I can use a computer with DV Rack , or laptop with an external hard drive connected by firewire, to do the same job as what FS100 does -- or even more storage depending on the szie of my external drive. Am I correct about this, or I miss some points? Please educate me.

Your idea of using right-angle connector is really great! Let me see if I can find any of this.

Thanks.

King
 
Steve Davy said:
I have been shooting music performances using three HVX cameras and recording to two laptops directly with two of the cameras. The third camera is using P2 cards because it is handheld. The two laptop cameras are stationary and record directly to Apple G4 Powerbooks (recent models) using Final Cut Log and Capture. The data is put onto off-board firewire drives so there is lots of storage. I have had a f success using this technique, however, it must be pointed out that the laptops need to be configured properly. I have set up a specific account in the G4s that is preset just for this purpose. There needs to be a second firewire bus in the PCMCIA card slot to feed the external firewire drive. This means that the new Intel machines wont work currently because they do not have PCMCIA slots. One other issue is backup. When the shoot is over, the first thing to do is transfer all the footage from camera 1 to camera 2s drive and visa versa. Also take the camera 3 footage (from the P2s) and back that up to one of the other drives. So far I have not even bought P2 cards to go with my camera because I am either shooting music in this way or sit down interviews. When I need to move, I just rent a couple cards for the job. I plan on working this way until the price drops (if it ever does).
Click to expand...

Steve, what a smart idea!

By the way, I am using PC and Avid. I am wondering if it can work out nicely as yours.

Are you recording with progressive scan? May I know your resolution?

Also, I would like to know if I can back up the shots in P2 card while I am recording them to the computer.

THoff, is DV Rack a kind of editing software?

Thanks a lot.

King
 
c3kings said:
1./ Is there any 16G card already there? That'll be great, if so.
Click to expand...
No, they are not out yet.
c3kings said:
2./ What is DV Rack? Can you direct me the website? Also, it seems that DV Rack method cannot do the native mode recording either. Am I right?
Click to expand...
DV Rack is a quality monitoring and direct-to-disk recording program for Windows systems. It's published by Serious Magic, which is now a Adobe company.

It cannot record the HVX's native mode because the DV port is not active in native mode. However, DV Rack can recognize duplicate frames and discards them, so if you set the camera to shoot 24P, DV Rack will extract the 24 progressive frames and record them to disk, and discarding everything else.

c3kings said:
Anyway, it sounds to me that I can use a computer with DV Rack , or laptop with an external hard drive connected by firewire, to do the same job as what FS100 does -- or even more storage depending on the szie of my external drive. Am I correct about this, or I miss some points? Please educate me.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's what I do. You lose mobility by tethering yourself to a laptop, but for many shooting scenarios that's not a problem, and you gain quality monitoring and reviewing capabilities that are unmatched by any other recording solution.

c3kings said:
Your idea of using right-angle connector is really great! Let me see if I can find any of this.
Click to expand...
Not my idea, really. I use a 15ft right-angle cable from Markertek to connect my HVX to a laptop running DV Rack -- I think regardless of what you connect the camera to, it should be part of your arsenal.
 
On the Mac, ScopeBox HD has just been released. For a 1.0 release its pretty impressive, but not as feature rich as DV Rack on the record side. It doesn't remove duplicate frames at this time, but they say they will add this 'soon'. I'm guessing you also need Final Cut Pro installed to use with the HVX.
 
Steve Davy said:
This means that the new Intel machines wont work currently because they do not have PCMCIA slots.

Can't you record out to FW 800 drives via the FW800 ports (only the most recent Mac Book Pros)?
Click to expand...
 
You can read P2 cards in an Intel laptop Mac via FW with the cards in the camera. You just can't use the new slots in the MacBooks.
 
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