Hvx200 vs XH-A1 lowlight

Barry_Green said:
Once again, I have no clue what you're talking about.

Can someone please give me the parameters of a test they'd like run, which will demonstrate this supposed superiority? 'Cause I've got them both right here, right now, side by side, both running into DV Rack on two laptops side by side, watching the scopes, watching the waveform, zooming the monitor in to super-zoom mode, and I'm telling ya, there ain't much difference. Certainly no difference worth talking about, and I flatly reject any notion that one is (to quote an earlier comment) "significantly better" than the other. They are, for all practical intents and purposes, the same. The Canon exhibits a tiny bit more brightness and a tiny bit more noise at equivalent gain settings. Nothing worth talking about.

I'm not talking about "opinion", I'm talking about what the actual results are.
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Barry, I'm stupid so don't mind me--

But are you compairing the captured footaged to the captured footage? Not just the camera's live.

I've noticed there's a lot less noise in the HVX before it's being put to DVCproHD/p2 Cards. But boy, when it gets there is there an assload of noise everywhere.

My questions have to do with the final image being acquired by the camera. To p2 and to Tape.

Honestly, when the footage goes to p2 there's a lot of noise. I've even experimented with some settings from other users out of the HVX footage forum and it's really noisey.

Everything else about the HVX is kick ass. I can't imagine how bummed I'll be messing around with an A1 and non-tapeless workflow. Seriously. There's no contets that I'd have to get a Firestore with the A1. Straight to tape just won't sit well with me ever again.
 
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Kholi said:
But are you compairing the captured footaged to the captured footage? Not just the camera's live.
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Comparing captured to captured. The DV Rack approach is taking the compressed firewire data from both, identical to what would be on tape.

I've noticed there's a lot less noise in the HVX before it's being put to DVCproHD/p2 Cards. But boy, when it gets there is there an assload of noise everywhere.
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Yep. Just like the Canon and the JVC.

Honestly, when the footage goes to tape there's a lot of noise.
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Yes there is. Just like the Canon and JVC.

The only one that doesn't have obvious, prevalent noise in its image is the Sony Z1/FX1. Those cams are noticeably cleaner than the others.
 
Toenis said:
It has now been officially anounced by Canon that the "F" mode is true progressive without resolution loss.
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No it hasn't. And there's definitely a resolution loss.

However, it really doesn't matter. It's a bit of a loss, from 700+ lines down to around 600. Not really a big deal at all.
 
delaro said:
barry, did you notice any difference between 24p and 24f motion so far?
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I've got footage from both that should definitively answer that, but haven't put it through the microscope yet.

how much resolution are we approximately loosing with 24f? 50%? 25%? less?
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Definitely less. I'd say more on the order of 15% at most.
 
Oh okay. Not too familiar with DVrack approach. Thanks for clearing that up.

I just don't know what I'm seeing, then. I even went to compare some of the other A1 straight night footage to my indoor all-the-lights-on footage and the A1 still seems to exhibit "less" noise. But, I think it's what you're saying about how it's presented. Maybe the A1 is just as noisey as the HVX, but the noise texture is a lot different.

Too bad the A1 doesn't have all these extra features... p2 is sick. I like being able to playback my Slow-mo in camera, dude.
 
Someone tell me how they want the A1 set up to deliver the most noise-free image in low light conditions (and what they consider "low light"). I'll then configure an HVX for the best I can get it, screen cap from both of 'em and post it. Do it quick though, I think I have to send this A1 back tomorrow.
 
Sure. An ideal/realistic low-light situation:

Turn off the lights in your apartment and pick a room or an object. Pitch-black isn't a realisitic test of anything.

But indoors without much lighting, hell even WITH lamps and stuff on is.
 
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Barry_Green said:
I think I have to send this A1 back tomorrow.
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so? what do you think? is the A1 some kind of new dvx for indies (i mean with cheap tape workflow, film look, cinegamma and 24f)? did you liked it? is it possible to obtain some popping colors in bright conditions like the z1 (well, if you managed to shoot under such conditions)?
 
Hey Elton, that's a nice big picture that doesn't tell us anything... :) On DVInfo they wrote up that the Canon engineers said "it's the same thing, basically" and then when asked "er, well, why is it dropping to 540 lines of resolution in 24F mode?" the only answer they could offer was "um, we'll get back to you." As far as I know, they haven't gotten back to anyone yet on that, have they?

In the end, it doesn't really matter. 24F looks good.
 
Right, I just posted it for fun. :) That was from Canon's powerpoints at the seminar.

Actually, it's a 1 pixel offset of the green CCD. The CCD is clocked correctly for the temporal signature. Exactly how they get to the progressive looking result from there they wouldn't elaborate.

I think it's something to do with sweeping/processing both fields in DIGIC DSP (which accounts for the delay in the VF) in combination with the green CCD "pixel shift".

I agree, the need to hyper-scrutinize it is over. It does lose a little bit of resolution, but it's amazing what they've been able to pull off with an interlace CCD.
 
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Barry_Green said:
On DVInfo they wrote up that the Canon engineers said "it's the same thing, basically" and then when asked "er, well, why is it dropping to 540 lines of resolution in 24F mode?" the only answer they could offer was "um, we'll get back to you." As far as I know, they haven't gotten back to anyone yet on that, have they?
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That was not exactly the question and answer, the Q. was: "Why is it dropping in resolution in 24F mode, we see that it is happening" ( they did not say to 540 lines)

The answer was: "we have to come back on that" :huh:

It is dropping in vertical res. but there is more than 540 left. (I can't find the thread anymore, otherwise I will update this, but please do, if you can find it.)
 
xray said:
It is dropping in vertical res. but there is more than 540 left. (I can't find the thread anymore, otherwise I will update this, but please do, if you can find it.)
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At the DV six-way shootout Adam Wilt declared that the XLH1 24F mode was delivering 540 lines.

I'd measure it at 600, because that's where the aliasing sets in on a static pattern.
 
Barry_Green said:
At the DV six-way shootout Adam Wilt declared that the XLH1 24F mode was delivering 540 lines.

I'd measure it at 600, because that's where the aliasing sets in on a static pattern.
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I know, but that is something different than the Canon rep said at the A1 presentation. You combined that with Adams Wilt his observations in your answer.

Besides that, he (the Canon rep) claimd at that presentation that the (F) mode in the A1 was different than the (F) mode in other Canon cams. It was not the same, he talked about "it is not a 1.5 x reading" of the chips.
 
Right, there was a combining. The point is, the Canon rep made a claim which doesn't match the evidence. So when presented with the question, he had no answer and said "I'll have to get back to you on that." And so far, they haven't.
 
It drops some resolution. It simply does becaue of the process, but what the F modes offer is acceptable to the vast majority that use the cameras. So in the end, who cares? It's a value propositon at the $4K pricepoint: Is the HDV 24F detailed enough? Most who've seen it or shot material with it have responded with a resounding YES!

I think Barry's about right; it loses roughly 15-20% resolution.

The horse is dead.
 
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As far as sharpness, F mode is fine. The horse is dead indeed. The performance on these cameras has closed the gap to where there really isn't a bad choice among the bunch (excepting only maybe the Sony Z1/FX1 for 24p performance because of its 24F mode, but the new V1 should rectify that).

So Elton, hook me up with a recipe for the ultimate low light performance on the XHA1 so I can side-by-side them real quick before I have to send this one back...
 
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