Hvx200 vs XH-A1 lowlight

I still want an answer to my questions. Someone explain this. Because, by my eyes and the .m2t/raw files, the A1's image is a lot cleaner. Maybe not as saturated, but it's been reported many times by users that they can match the look with A1.
 
Bottom Line: Both have noise, but what I think people are finding is generally that the Canon cameras produce less *apparent* noise. And this probably has something to do with the fact that the HVX predominantly renders a chroma noise, which is probably why people see the "swim" of it, whereas the A1 has a finer pattern of luma noise, and also has options to smooth out the noise if you need to pump the gain. Using NR1 Low on 12 dB brings it back down to a 3-6dBish look.

Nothing is perfect in the small sensor "affordable HD" category, and I agree with Barry that the Z1/FX1 is still the relativey noise-free champ, but when it comes to the other cameras it's a matter of taste and perspective.

Most of the HVX owners that I know all agree that cranking the gain is a bit of a no-no.

The H1/A1...well...not so much.
 
Yes, and lets put this all into perspective: These cameras (HVX, A1, H1) are doing pretty darn well for low noise if you consider what they are up against.

I guess its back to the glass half full or half empty perception.
 
That's good enough for me. The HVX "noise" compared to the A1's is a lot more... displeasing.

Especially when I go to try to do any sort of CC'ing.
 
Surprise me with the sweet, I already know that I like the HVXcolor more, there is just more dimension in it, but Canon is doing fine in software tuning.
 
Barry_Green said:
Have you worked with both of them? Have you tried them both yourself? How can you say this?

I've got them both here right now. There is no difference. There is absolutely no truth to any claim that the Canon is "significantly better". They are basically identical in low light performance.
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it's your opinion Barry.. but i agree with bogdan, icicle, kholi, the dutchray, etc.. and i think the great majority too.. yeah, we're a great majority..

you're a hvx specialist, maybe you get that particular point where it is possible to handle the noise.. but the limitations are higher than playing on canon.. as well on resolution stuff.. but that's a different story..

there is a different range.. the noise range (that's what we've been talking about) not what you can get where you probably don't go because the shooting circumstances don't let you..

it's the same like shooting an ugly face.. a good director can get what the others don't.. but even the same director will have more problems with an ugly face than a pretty one..

the ugly face keep going as ugly as before.. where a pretty face shines.. the canons are pretty faces..

edit
sorry mate.. i'd like to see you at the canon side but we understand the reality is more complicated than our wishes..
 
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Once again, I have no clue what you're talking about.

Can someone please give me the parameters of a test they'd like run, which will demonstrate this supposed superiority? 'Cause I've got them both right here, right now, side by side, both running into DV Rack on two laptops side by side, watching the scopes, watching the waveform, zooming the monitor in to super-zoom mode, and I'm telling ya, there ain't much difference. Certainly no difference worth talking about, and I flatly reject any notion that one is (to quote an earlier comment) "significantly better" than the other. They are, for all practical intents and purposes, the same. The Canon exhibits a tiny bit more brightness and a tiny bit more noise at equivalent gain settings. Nothing worth talking about.

I'm not talking about "opinion", I'm talking about what the actual results are.
 
ncje said:
... I can pump the colours on the A1 to equal the HVX... out of the box is kind of cold yes, but hey we are in the manual camera world.
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I think it's important to make a distinction about the philosophy behind the "default look" of the Canon cameras.

They ship *broadcast flat* out-of-the-box, much like an F900 does. They are meant to shoot with maximum range when in auto mode, not "rich and contrasty" in-camera, which is where I think they diverge from Panasonic's approach. I know the HVX has different flatter scene files, (News Gamma, etc.) but most new owners simply try the Cinelike V and D first, which are fairly colorful by default. Nothing wrong with that, they are just more aggressive about how the image is processed IMHO.

Maybe it would be cool if Canon had a more tagged Fuji-like, instant gratification preset, but the approach is just conservative: Let the shooter paint the image.

Just a few thoughts on the subject. :)
 
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Barry_Green said:
Once again, I have no clue what you're talking about.
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i'm sorry but let the things where they are.. :) we'll never get here a consensus between our different approaches.. and i have no english for yours :crybaby: i should and want to be polite and i've fear for a language limitation here..

it's like hvx against canon.. :D

different approaches.. i just leave my humble contribution here for future readers w/out knowing what camcorder to buy.. english natives too.. i'm not but surely a native filmmaker.. :grin: i also was a potential hvx buyer and unfortunately i gave up and if it wouldn't be on red (different ballpark) it would be on canon.. and i didn't lose more than ten seconds with my indecision..
 
filmmaker1977 said:
i'm sorry but let the things where they are.. :) we'll never get here a consensus between our different approaches.. and i have no english for yours :crybaby: i should and want to be polite and i've fear for a language limitation here..

it's like hvx against canon.. :D

different approaches.. i just leave my humble contribution here for future readers w/out knowing what camcorder to buy.. english natives too.. i'm not but surely a native filmmaker.. :grin: i also was a potential hvx buyer and unfortunately i gave up and if it wouldn't be on red (different ballpark) it would be on canon.. and i didn't lose more than ten seconds with my indecision..
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.......... I'll have what he's drinking :beer:

Barry, is there any way you could do a test by moving the cameras very far away from each other ..... like maybe three miles or more? Could you also put some little star stickers over the lens of the HVX so we could add a little contrast in the results please? It's getting boring with the tons of people that have been testing these cameras side by side all the time.
 
John Froton said:
.......... I'll have what he's drinking :beer:

Barry, is there any way you could do a test by moving the cameras very far away from each other ..... like maybe three miles or more? Could you also put some little star stickers over the lens of the HVX so we could add a little contrast in the results please? It's getting boring with the tons of people that have been testing these cameras side by side all the time.
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:grin:

:beer:
 
Sorry.

I was just interjecting a little sarcasm. It sounds to me like Barry is doing a more realistic comparison than anyone else can claim to have done. Shooting the same set with similar settings is about the only way you can be objective. Otherwise, who knows how well one camera owner can tweak his image over another's?

You can't really get as much out of comparing random Canon vs Panasonic images that are uploaded here and there can you?
 
no worries there.. me likes when the people don't act like lambs.. :Drogar-Dum(DBG): me also likes all the objective tests barry has been doing.. his method is fair.. the only fault there is what i'd like to have from his agreement and it isn't possible.. :crybaby:

edit
a recent ex.. :-Laugh(DBG):
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=775967&postcount=6

quoted by barry: "The Sony V1U is the one that *does* have actual 24P, the Canon doesn't."

:violin:

it's true but that said, it sounds.. :huh:

but it isn't his fault.. even when i don't agree with his finds or how he handles with the imperfections of any threat to the panasonic products, i read all of his posts.. :thumbsup: and it'll be interesting to read what he'll have to say on the new canon and sony small cameras.. he knows his stuff.. :thumbup: and if he sees a weakness on the panasonic competition it is because that particular fragility is over there.. his words are good clues.. :birthdays:
 
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barry, did you notice any difference between 24p and 24f motion so far?
how much resolution are we approximately loosing with 24f? 50%? 25%? less?
 
What?
It has now been officially anounced by Canon that the "F" mode is true progressive without resolution loss.
Or am I missing something here?

T
 
Toenis said:
What?
It has now been officially anounced by Canon that the "F" mode is true progressive without resolution loss.
Or am I missing something here?

T
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oh sorry if it's the case, i've read a lot of threads but people seemed to be confused about that. maybe i missed something :)
 
I am not discounting that Barry is seeing what he is seeing. But why are there so many of us that are seeing something different? Not just in tests. I owned and used the HVX200 for 4 months before selling it. Once I switched to the H1 I felt like a world of better footage was upon me. The overall image of the H1 in dark to poor light situations was superior. It just seems like a much more "forgiving" camera. The HVX200 looks amazing when you light all of your scenes. In my cirumstances I didn't have that luxury and I needed a camera that would do better in lowlight. Heck....that's why I bought the HVX in the first place. I knew that they were pixel shifting out the wazoo ahead of time but I was willing to sacrifice a little rez for a more sensitive CCD set with less noise. But that is not how it turned out.

I really wanted to keep my HVX. I really could not afford the H1. But the tests and 2 weeks of using both cameras on the same gigs just pushed me into the H1....despite my protests. If the A1 is the ame as the H1 it seems hard to believe that Barry is not seeing a better lowlight performance from the A1. Hmmm....

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Peace!
 
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