HVX vs. Canon HDV

K

Keegs

Active member
I know and am sure that this topic has been beaten to a pulp, but...

If I were to buy an HVX, WITHOUT p2 cards, and shoot directly to tape for now, before I pony up fro 16gb cards, would it be in my better interest to get the Canon XH A1 camera?

Does the HVX shoot HDV to tape or only SD? Since HVX's can be had for 4k used without P2's, then its at the same pricepoint as the A1.

What are your guy's thoughts? Used mainly for industrial video use, but my passion is film. (read money making comes from boring info videos)

best
Keegan
 
Get the A1. With the HVX, you'll also need big reliable HDD's, which are not cheap. And DV vs HDV, HDV wins, hands down. HDV is DV, but in High Resolution. The Canon A1 seems like a good camera with the same interiors, such as ccd's, as the XL-H1.

I'm an HVX owner, and am very happy with it. But it is unrealistic to say that you'll have an HD ready workflow with the HVX for 4000. With the A1, this is possible, as long as you have a fast enough computer for editing. And you can also record DV in the A1, if you like.

PS- But I have to say that if I was in your situation, since I'm very passion driven, and don't listen much to reason, I would go the HVX route. Thereason is because I came from a DVX background, and that camera was a joy to use- have been using it for almost 3 years. With the HVX, I already know where the buttons are, and what to expect from the camera. The quality is brilliant and Its just a joy to use and to shoot with it. So there.

Not much of a help, is it :) ?
 
HVX does not shoot HDV or any other High Def format to tape. DVCPRO HD is recorded to the p2 cards.

You cannot get an HVX for 4k. At least not from a reliable, authorized dealer, and be sure that you are getting an authorized U.S. product.

You will get a free 8gig p2 card with the purchase of an HVX.

I would suggest doing some more reading up on the cameras that you are considering, so you can make a more informed decision based on your needs. You need to learn more about what each camera will and will not do, and whether or not those features are a plus or a minus for what you want to do. I really want you to make a purchase that you can be confident in. To do that, I suggest that you do a lot more research. These cameras are not cheap, and you want to be sure you are happy with your purchase.

Jason
 
Well I will offer my .02:

The HVX does not shoot HDV to the tape deck. Only incredible SD footage :)

I would suggest the HVX anyhow. Reasons for that is after going tapeless, you wont want to go back.

You can always rent P2 cards for your jobs until you have saved up for your own.
I am not a tech guru, but I would bet money that the HVX is a better long run investment vs. the HDV A1.

I'd listen to what others have to say.

p.s. Jason makes a great point with the new 8 gig card rebate.
 
Keegs said:
If I were to buy an HVX, WITHOUT p2 cards[...]
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If you buy before the end of the year, you'll get a free 8GB card.

In some ways two 4GB cards would be better, and I'm sure someone (maybe even the dealer) would let you swap one 8GB card for two 4GB ones.
 
Another thing to consider is if you decide to go with the A1 and use it as a capture deck you will be using it for something it wasn't meant for because it will kill the heads on the camera. You will need a deck and I have read people are thinking about getting the small 1 chipper that canon is coming out with to use as a deck. the price is over 1K. So you should take that cost also into consideration.
 
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One of the best features of the HVX for filmmakers is that since it records to the P2 cards, different frame rates can be used and a fair slow motion can be achieved unlike tape-based cameras. For me, a film passionate that's another good reason to buy one. My question is? Very narrow film-like depth of film can be achieved too? Can a wide angle lens be attached?
 
1st: Thanks guys for the input. Although I still haven't made up my mind, its good to hear people speaking on my scenario.

So...I will explain a little more in depth what I do/run.

Have a completely built/beefed up late model quad G5. (TONS of storage, no raid, but plenty of fast external space. not an issue when talking about editing capabilities)

-playback/capturing of either camera (A1 specifically). I have an old Canon GL-1 that I have been using for capturing and shooting for 6 years almost, and never had an issue with the heads. If i did, I would get it serviced under extended warranty blah blah... not worried about purchasing a separate deck. I would rather spend the extra 1.5K on better more important things.

-yes, you can get used HVX's withOUT P2 cards for about 4k. I am aware of the P2 rebate, but makes me even more uneasy about that fact that the tech companies and panasonic are simply holding out on the storage and slowly feeding it to us (16 and 32gb cards) They will come out soon, but for an insaneee price tag I am sure. I do have the money to

Onto what I would use this camera choice for...

I am currently a film student and graduating soon (spring time). However for any film I currently spend time to shoot, I shoot on either 16 or 35mm format variations. BUT, when looking for a new video camera, It is hard to not look for "film like" qualities for when I shoot smaller productions etc. However, with HVX and a good cine set-up, it is realistic to shoot with it as a "format of choice" for a drama.

Further, I just got done with a feature documentary on graffiti, shot on every format OTHER than 35 (s16, s8mm, dv, hdv, hi-8!). Having a camera that would be good for on the fly documentation at high quality is very appealing (Canon +1 point)

On to how I make the money to buy the cameras...

I typically shoot industrial/informational videos. Very boring stuff. For example, I am working on a 1 hour instructional DVD showing custom automotive painting techniques. This came from over 6 hours of footage. (6/1 ratio is pretty bad, I know:/

On another note, I COULD just wait the whole purchase out until the spring time and make do with twisting the arm of the school and renting cameras from them (HVX, DVX, 16 etc... readily available). However, the logistics is often a biotch.

Thats all I can think of for now. Let me know what you think and if that sways anyones opinions. I have read up on both cameras pretty thoroughly, and hopefully tomorrow will futs around with the Canon at Samy's and get a feel for it.
 
And DV vs HDV, HDV wins, hands down. HDV is DV, but in High Resolution.
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You should know better than that. Think about it for a second, if everything else was equal then how exactly would HDV manage to fit on the exact same sized tape.

HDV is different than DV. On the plus side, it's HD. It also uses 4:2:0 color compression over 4:1:1. It's technically the same amount of compression but achieved differently and some find 4:2:0 looks nicer. However, HDV has to compress motion in order to fit onto such a small tape. This is not the same as DV which uses plain intraframe encoding with no motion compression. Now, some HDV is better than others. I know some producitons refused to move to HDV from DV because the Sony motion compression bothered them so much. Canon's HDV is much better from what I've heard but it's still not the same as DV.

As for my suggestion, I'd say it depends on how much you have to spend. Both the HVX200 and A1 produce some great images. The A1 has the advantage of being a bit sharper, a longer lense, and some claim better in low light. The HVX200 has less color compression, no motion compression (uses 4:2:2 DVCProHD), variable frame-rates, a bit more dynamic range, a bit more sensativity, the ability to shoot 720p, a wider lense, four audio channels, and many feel more filmic colors. So, in my book, I like the HVX200 image a bit more but they both look very nice.

Now we get to cost and workflow.

Right now you can get an HVX200 for 5300 and an 8 gig P2 card. This'll give you 20 minutes of 720p24pN footage. It doesn't seem like a lot but with the flexibility of P2 (especially being able to delete bad clips) this goes a long way. Throw in another 4 gig ($500) and a laptop for offloading ($700) and you've got a system for $6500. Or, you could spend $1800 on a FS-100 and record for hours without offloading.

Now, lets go with the A1. You spend $4000 on the camera but how are you going to get it into the computer? You can't just buy a cheap DV camera for capture and you sure as hell don't want to use your camera as a deck and destroy it. So, you gotta get a deck or a cheap HDV camera but most HDV cameras don't support Canon's 24f so your options are limited. Right now the only choice is the cheap Canon HDV (not sure if it supports 24f) which runs around $1400. So now the Price becomes $5400.

Finally there is workflow. P2 just lets you drag and drop into the computer. This means with no moving parts you'll never have to worry about dirty head issues, capturing, broken heads and repairs, and all the other tape issues. Ultimatly the heads on your A1 will wear down (even without using it as a deck) and need maitenance. I don't know how much that'll be but it's something to consider.

So, you have to ask yourself if you think the pros of the HVX200 are worth the approximatly $1000 more than those of the Canon A1. If you just plan to shoot tape to both then yes I'd go with the A1 but, for an extra grand, I think the HVX200 with it's variable frame rates, less compression, and P2 workflow is worth it.
 
If you're looking for the film look and film like settings I'd say go for the HVX200 and bite the bullet for the extra cost. I use it for corporate stuff and it works great. The only time you'll notice the resolution gains of the A1 is going to be on a blow up and, having seen an HVX200 filmout on the big screen (thanks Josh Blue) I can safely say that it looks quite sharp enough for my eyes and most peoples. On a DVD, the HVX200's better motion rendering and color compression is really going to shine I think (there have been no transfer tests so I can't say for sure). The price of P2 is dropping fast. I don't know when we'll get 16 gigs but 4 gigers keep dropping faster and faster and, since it takes all of two seconds to switch cards, I don't see an issue.
 
Well, actually, B&H is selling the Canon HV10 for about $1,000 right now (couple this with a $300 Zoom H4 portable recorder for audio and you've got a good HDV behind-the-scenes/interview camera too).

I personally was aiming for the HVX200 before this whole RED business started up.

As far as movies go, the HVX200 is the only way to go at the moment for straight up HD filmmaking. Things would be much different if you were comparing the G1 with the HVX200 instead of the A1, as the G1 has the added advantage of uncompressed HD video and audio output via HD-SDI. So then things would be 50-50% and depend on workflow choice.

I like HDV and Canon has done some wonderful stuff with it and it shows in the user footage section for the XLH1. There's a lot you could do with the A1, G1, or XLH1, but in the end it's still HDV and that format has some really limiting drawbacks.

Look, Panasonic is throwing a beautiful golden bone with the free 8gb P2 card deal. :) I say don't miss out, there's just too many better qualities that the HVX200 has over HDV cameras at the moment, especially for filmmakers.
 
P2 versus Tape

P2 versus Tape

My other 0.02 "centavos"

The p2 is not prone to humidity or dirty heads as the Tape based camcorders, ie. shooting on winter, high humid enviroments, etc. Even the tear and wear of the tapes, recording and playing back from tape to the computer.

A long time ago, the broadcast decks as the Pana D5, JVC D9 and the old Betacam's were rated as 4K hours reliability, now soem mid level Digibetas have a 2K reliability life span. We are talking about $xx,xxx decks.

I don't see how they will develope a sub $10,000 camcorder with higher than 2K hours, how many tapes can you record and playback with that timeframe before you start having big problems?

P2, perfect no moving parts, no dropped frames, what if you forget to put your tape in the same pocket as your cell phone?. (I really don't know the durability of the p2 against external magnetic fields, think that is zero).

Go with the HVX200 and cineporter, that will make your life happy!.

JB
 
David, I was going for a simple comparison there.You are right. Since I'm in Pal land, I'm used to 4:2:0, and having had some experience with HDV, it really looked to my eyes as High Definition DV. Of course the intraframe vs long gop editing is important, and also the "Fake" 24p of the Canon (Which is not fake in therms of motion results, but presents a significant drop in resolution to the 1080i signal).

However, I do feel that, budget wise, and rationaly thinking, that the A1 is a better camera for what the original poster is going to do (Notice he's going to do industrial videos with hours of footage-that's just a hassle right now if you are doing event coverage, for example, where the camera needs to keep on rolling, and live.)

Not to say its not doable, but certainly less practical.

My suggestion? Buy the A1, earn big bucks with it, deliver in HDV, and in no time you'll have the budget to go HVX. By that time (A couple of months?) 16gb cards will already be out in the market, you can sell the A1 on E-bay and by then, you already had hours of HD training, taking care of issues such as output, focusing, detail, low light HD shooting and so on, so the transition to the HVX should be a breeze (maybe then you'll get an HVX200a? Its going to happen, people, sooner or later)
 
No, the HVX with Cineporter or with 3 P2 cards and P2 store is way over budget for him, buy the A1, it looks like a good camcorder with almost no additional costs.
You spent more time in the editing process and you need a fast ( new) computer, but you can make looong recordings cheap.
 
Jack_Felis said:
Well, actually, B&H is selling the Canon HV10 for about $1,000 right now (couple this with a $300 Zoom H4 portable recorder for audio and you've got a good HDV behind-the-scenes/interview camera too).
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I just checked there sight and it's listed as $1400.

However, I do feel that, budget wise, and rationaly thinking, that the A1 is a better camera for what the original poster is going to do (Notice he's going to do industrial videos with hours of footage-that's just a hassle right now if you are doing event coverage, for example, where the camera needs to keep on rolling, and live.)
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I'm going to have to respectifully disagree. Based on the first post, I actually was going to reccomend the A1 to keep costs down but based on what he's looking for, I'd actually say that the HVX200 will be worth the extra grand or so. The biggest reason is the variable frame rates and the look. He already said he wants to have a camera that looks and performs closer to a film camera and the HVX200 just fits that. The film look is subjective but still important. He says he does corporate stuff but is a film student. He reminds me a lot of myself. I just got out of film school and started doing corporate stuff. If all I had cared about was budget and the corporate videos then I probably would have gone with one of the HDV alternatives. However, even though I want to do coproate stuff to pay the bills, it's really important to me to have a camera to produce the filmic images I want for my own project. The HVX200 fits the bill better than anyone.

Oh, and a word about the coporate stuff, yes the HVX200 isn't suited best for event shooting. However, for promotional spots, commercials, and training videos it works great (which is what I've been using it for). I'll also say that clients really love the variable frame rates. It may be silly but you can see their eyes light up when you show them some true slow motion or some long exposure timelapses.
 
1.
I just had the pleasure of watching some rather nicely shot XL-1 (or whatever the name of the biggest Canon HDV beauty is) and it was all pretty nice, excepts for red bleeding all over the place.

2.
I almost won't mention true progressive or the GOP thing. One is kinda a taste thing (ok I might get bashed for saying that, but I think the Canon really did a good job "f" or whatever... -;), the other is plain out bad for editing.
I would recomend doing a search on the forums here, @ dvinfo.net & @ creativecow.net on the editing woes people are having with HDV.
I've never captured or edited HDV myself, but watch the frustration ratio.
This could of course be due to incompetence, but then incompetence is a common problem for HDV editors, and I don't think so. Actually the Sony sries of cameras seems to work better than the Canon/JVC ones (for post production, that is).

3.
In SD:
If you're on the cheapo, shoot/edit DVCPRO 50 instead of DV, and you'll sorta start to wonder why you ever were so excited about this DV format. (That is: if you ever were -;)

Gunleik
 
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DavidBeier said:
I just checked there sight and it's listed as $1400.
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May want to try looking again, David, I think you found the HV10 kit which includes a UV filter, extra batteries and other stuff. Yet the basic retail HV10 package is being sold for $1,000. :thumbup:

Confusing, I know, that darn kit keeps popping in and out of the site, sometimes it's there when you look for it and then other times you have to do a search.
 
I stand corrected.

As for Gunleik's statements, I tend to agree. Canon's fake progressive looks just like real 24p to my eyes.

However, HDV still has its own issues. I havn't seen enough XLH1 footage to judge but I've seen motion breakup and macroblocking with all other HDV cameras. Also, no matter whether Canon's formula is better or not, it still is going to be more processor intensive and less CC friendly than DVCProHD. Also, and this is just me personally, I have issues for the simple fact that Avid doesn't support 24f. I know FCP supports it though I'm not sure about Vegas.
 
That's weird, because, I've been seeing XH-A1 footage Color Corrected and the results seem to be a lot better than the macro-blocky HVX footage.

Not that it's not fine. But, I don't know how much better CCing it really is. Maybe for chroma work.
 
you use p2 card, you still need a laptop to download the footage.

you can use the laptop to record directly from the A1. No need for a deck, no need to buy the small canon cam as a deck.

P/S: i have a brand new A1 for sale for cheap, check out the marketplace or search under my username.
 
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