My Plead to the RED Team for Alternative Lens Mounts

Finner said:
With the Red made PL mount and NIKOR mount or CANON mount has anyone heard if they will be easy to interchange on the body if you owned them all? Would correct calibration of switching mounts become a problem with changing them yourself?
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Hi Finner,

Mounts need to be set with 5 microns, about 1/10th of the thickness of a human hair. Just Possible but I don't know how you can measure the depth. With a film camera a steel block is placed where the film is and the depth measured to 51.98mm for Arri PL. The idea is that the image is focused into the film. Lenses are set at 52mm. Nikon is 46.6 I think so it is behind the PL mount. Aaton is even less so can be adapted for most lenses.

Stephen
 
Finner said:
With the Red made PL mount and NIKOR mount or CANON mount has anyone heard if they will be easy to interchange on the body if you owned them all? Would correct calibration of switching mounts become a problem with changing them yourself?
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When asked before about how easy mounts will be to interchange Jim said:

Very easy. The Trick is to have the base to intermediate mount distance set at the factory and leave enough room for all possible mounts. More details pretty soon.

jim
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http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=71433&highlight=mount

Martin
 
Muttondraw said:
When asked before about how easy mounts will be to interchange Jim said://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.phpt=71433&highlight=mountMartin
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Martin,

Unscrewing and changing a mount is very easy, however the depth has to be set within 5 microns. I don't know how many times Jim has changed mounts on film cameras. I have done this many times, 90% of the time everything measures up, sometimes it's more difficult.

It's the "more details pretty soon" bit you need to wait for. Having the space for an intemediate adapter & Nikon lens short FFD is the tricky bit. Only Fries Engineering were able to offers all mounts for their Mitchell conversions, they did not have space for an intemediate adapter, just screwed them to the front of the camera.

FWIW Cooke optics use an intemediate adapter on their 20-100 Zoom (and others) so that the lens mounts can be switched.

Stephen
 
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Stephen Williams said:
Martin,

Unscrewing and changing a mount is very easy, however the depth has to be set within 5 microns. I don't know how many times Jim has changed mounts on film cameras. I have done this many times, 90% of the time everything measures up, sometimes it's more difficult.

It's the "more details pretty soon" bit you need to wait for. Having the space for an intemediate adapter & Nikon lens short FFD is the tricky bit. Only Fries Engineering were able to offers all mounts for their Mitchell conversions, they did not have space for an intemediate adapter, just screwed them to the front of the camera.

FWIW Cooke optics use an intemediate adapter on their 20-100 Zoom (and others) so that the lens mounts can be switched.

Stephen
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I am sure your point is valid. Jims comment does answer Finners query though, with the caveat that until anything is delivered nothing is for certain.

Effectively Reds interchangeable mount is an intermediate mount. In principal there shouldn't be any reason why it can't operate effectively with a quick change mechanism. Standard lens mounts themselves allow us to quick change lenses with sufficient accuracy, so it is obviously a problem which has been solved in this situation. there is no reason it can't be solved for an interchangeable (/intermediate) mount as long as the mount is mechanically stable, which means solid enough that it wont flex. I think this is the problem with a lot of lens adapters, they are designed to do as well as possible but within very tight constraints. They can't be big and solid because there isn't the space.

I think the Red interchangeable mount is likely to differ fundamentally from lens adapters, in that it is designed as an interchangeable system from the ground up. I am sure Red are aware of the issues so they can build in the space to allow for a solid, rigid mount.

I would imagine the biggest issue as to whether the mount will be quick change or not is cost. It is good then to know that Jims intention is that the mount can be changed easily, at least we know where they are aiming.

Martin
 
Barry_Green said:
Besides, 300 units is not that small a size for the cine market. I wouldn't be surprised if Sony's only sold 300 CineAlta F900's worldwide.
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hello barry, good post, but i have to correct you on one speculation.

Sony has ~450 cinealta units in L.A. alone and >27.000 hdcam/cinealta units shipped.

sources are official sony & bandpro PR as of sept 2006 & march 2006.
 
Barry_Green said:
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CineAlta is a comprehensive family name. They have the F900H, F900W, F900R, F950, HDC1000, HDC1500, PDW350 XDCAM-HD, PDW-F330 XDCAM-HD, 14 different decks, and probably other gear as well. That's all for just the "CineAlta" badge; the entire HDCAM lineup is obviously much larger.

Where did you see an article that said they're claiming 27,000 CineAlta units since 2000? I found an Interbee press release from 2006 that says 27,000 HD units sold, but that certainly isn't just F900 CineAlta cameras! That would include the HDW700 and 750 and all HDCAM cameras and decks and other associated equipment, and not just the 24p F900.

Maybe 300 is a bit low, but I'm pretty sure I'm not off by a factor of 90... :thumbsup:
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“The last 12 months have seen Sony strengthen the HDCAM line-up significantly, with the new
HDW-F900R HDCAM camcorder and version 2 software for the HDW-750 being two good
examples,” said Calvin Judges, Marketing Manager, Sony of Canada Ltd.

“HDCAM sales around the
world have now reached 27,000 units and with the introduction of the HDW-1800 and HDWD1800,
we’re bringing the HDCAM experience to an audience who may have considered
HDCAM to have been out of budget until now. This is a further demonstration of our
commitment to the HDCAM format and its users around the world and is another step forward
in our vision of High Definition for all.”

sony IBC pr 2006. simply google sony 27000 hdcam and you will find many releases.

here in germany, or in europe generally, 25P is shot for cinema very often.
so most people don´t care about the additional badge, its only marketing anyhow.

the 900 & 750 share the same optical system btw. only the 730 indeed has a inferior sensor. Its funny how sony claims 14bit for their HDV, 12 bit/10 bit for the 900/750. HDCAM is 8 bit to tape, and 10bit to HDSDI, and there is no REDCINE etc to allow access to 12 or 14bit inside the cams. pure marketing.

however, 750/900 are great cameras, and have been this for us since many years. indeed, they still have feature introduced years ago, which even red won´t offer or at least hasn´t announced as of yet (integrated wireless audio, integrated pal/btsc downconverter for dubs, record 7 seconds before you hit record (great for sports and wildlife) to name a few).

However, would i have had the choice of red in 2001 (when we started moving into hdcam additionally to 35mm), i would have bought red, even if red would have been a little bit more expensive.

Also i do suppose that we will see lots of RED delivered via HDCAM and HDCAM SR. Slow, as broadcasters often are, as for them workflow is > quality in most of the cases, it will tke some time until you can deliver them a reddrive or even a generic drive. Generally speaking, of course.
 
Muttondraw said:
there is no reason it can't be solved for an interchangeable (/intermediate) mount as long as the mount is mechanically stable,
Martin
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Hi ,

An intermediate adapter means 4 surfaces instead of 2, the accuracy of each surface must then be within 1.25 microns! Any dust between the surfaces and you will be out of spec! If you have test equipment at home there is no reason why you should not do it yourself.

Stephen
 
Sony has ~450 cinealta units in L.A. alone and >27.000 hdcam/cinealta units shipped.

sources are official sony & bandpro PR as of sept 2006 & march 2006.
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Thanks for that Laguun i knew i read it somewhere :)

I laso read somewhere that the BBC had recently equipped themselves with Sony HD cams in Scotland. Could be they have also done so in other parts of UK. Yet i heard a comment here or at DVinfo saying the opposite?

I mentioned this simply to show that red is likely to change the "numbers game" of those who previously could not afford to get involved in 35mm to now become invloved. The Sony HD cam is similar in price to red yet red offers so much more. Once red is given the green light in Hollywood the path is clear for them to make variations of the red one.

Sony have a market to protect but i wonder why Canon is still concentrating on the 1/3rd sensor and HD lenses to suit. the latest lens (the 6 x zoom) costing a very competitive $3,000 and yet they still havent produced a 2/3rds camera/sensor. Red is currently offering a great deal i hope they can keep up the competitive edge.

On the question of mounts and clearance tolerances do not be put off by suggested clearences of 1/1,000 of an inch for instance (just an example) the motor trade has been working on clearances of thousands of an inch ( mm now) for decades. Several falnges of varying thickness can be made but yes any dirt could be a major problem. I know nothing about cameras but looking at the flange from the photos of red one it is no big deal to make paper thin flange mounts i am sure there must be other difficult factors other than just making a flange to suit?

I havent a clue what the cine market numbers are for cameras/people involved but once red is on the market i wonder just how much percentage wise that figure will change by?

The still lenses from what i have read (all theory just learning) may still exhibit problems with breathing and focusing but on the problem of focusing movement within the still lenses focus ring being much less movement compared to any cine lens surely that can be taken care of with proper gearing applied to a suitable follow focus unit. In theory you should be able to move the focus wheel as much as you like depending on what ratio you wish to make the gearing to suit. Guys i am thinking out loud and have no knowledge whatever of this stuff but just the engineer in me thinking? Trying to throw some thinking thats all.

Michael
 
Thanks for the link Muttondraw. It clears up alot of my questions. On the link though their were a lot of people mentioning how they would prefer a quick release system to change the lens mounts themselves. I sure hope Red does not do that. An extremely secure lens mount is an absolute must. Some were worried that dust may get on the sensor when changing the lens mounts if they had too many screws or even any screws to attach them. That problem would be easily solved with putting on a port cap on each mount before you remove and replace leaving the sensor open to the elements for a very short time. I can't even imagine having 2 quick release systems between the lens and the camera. The amount of problems that could cause would be terrible.

Stephen I totally appreciate and know the kind of precision needed with mounts (I have worked with all manner of film cameras for 16 years) Ijust hope their is a way to be able to swap mounts in my workshop at home between jobs and not have to get a camera tech to do it each time.
 
I don't understand Filmaker a must for what? The short time it will take to change the mount itself will not matter. The screws can be set up so they come out of the body but not all the way out of the mount. Also when you are talking about something that will take roughly 2-3minutes for a major camera change that time is nothing. It is much better spent time then a few years down the line having to constantly go in with your camera to have a tech recalabrate your mount. I have many times in Prep at Panavision had to have the camera mount re-calabrated and that is with a screwed in stationary mount. Mounts have to be so incredibly presise that I would't want anything but a rock solid, limited moving parts system. A quick release mounting system is just asking for a world of pain that bites a person in the ass when they are 90 miles from butt crack no-where.

Trust me I see what you want and I agree speed is important but not if speed leads to technical problems. Especially if those problems have to be fixed by a tech in a camera house and not possible to fix on set.
 
Filmmaker'77 isn't more over here because he is travelling now (I'm his partner) but what I think what he wished to say it is our concern about the use of different lenses, different mounts. When there won't be time to screw, a quick release will be important. Without forgetting the other aspects of how to recalibrate and secure the lens, of course.

It seems Mr. Jannard already promised how to handle with it. Quickly but safe. Other expectation wouldn't be acceptable.
 
Gordon

I guess the main thing I am looking for is the ability to change (hopefully reasonably priced) mounts myself and have them perform. If it takes 10 seconds or 10 minutes to do I think the key is thAt we can do it ourselves. I have worked with a lot of different camera bodies and not 1 of them was I able to change the mount on. So I think just being able to do it without major expense or time of having to get a tech to do it is huge.

What I don't quite understand is why you would want to change it so quickly on a shoot? The look will never come close to being able to match up. For myself if I am working on a big budget shoot it will rent S4's and maybe a zoom so I will run a PL mount all day and on a low budget PSA or Corporate vid I will go all day with a still's mount.

I am not saying it is a bad idea to get different looks but how often would you really do it for the same shoot? And how often would the mount change be made for the same set up? Would'nt you have time to attend to the mount change durring the new lighting set up? I hope I don't sound rude because I sure don't mean to. I just am confused with the need for such a quick swap of such drastically different looks.


One
 
I guess there are a lot of run and gun shooters here waiting for the Red camera to this use. And if this will never be a DVX, at least what can we expect? The camcorder concept maybe. Small, lightweight, ease of use. Like a pen. Call it video vice, if you wish. More than strictly cine style.

Quick and safe, it doesn't bother.
 
filmmaker1977 said:
this would/will be a good idea..
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Hi,

The lenses still have to be put on a collimator after swopping mounts as some dust in the mount would through the lens out of tolerance. The risk is soft shots at the wide end of the zoom, everything will look good when zoomed in.

Stephen
 
Gordon Prince said:
When there won't be time to screw, a quick release will be important. Without forgetting the other aspects of how to recalibrate and secure the lens, of course.

It seems Mr. Jannard already promised how to handle with it. Quickly but safe. Other expectation wouldn't be acceptable.
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I wanted to mention one more thing I have been at Panavision and other rental houses when the mount has been off and they have to re-shim and calabrate it and it takes 15 minutes and more some times in a perfectly controlled environment with all the tools and an experienced tech. So from any of my experience if the changing of a completly different lens mount took even 20 minutes and any owner could do it that would be quick.
 
Finner said:
. I have many times in Prep at Panavision had to have the camera mount re-calabrated and that is with a screwed in stationary mount. Mounts have to be so incredibly presise that I would't want anything but a rock solid, limited moving parts system. A quick release mounting system is just asking for a world of pain that bites a person in the ass when they are 90 miles from butt crack no-where.

Trust me I see what you want and I agree speed is important but not if speed leads to technical problems. Especially if those problems have to be fixed by a tech in a camera house and not possible to fix on set.
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Hi Finner,

I think you have summed it up well.

The Aaton AMinima one of the smallest S16 cameras and has swopable lens mounts for Nikon & Arri PL. Whilst it would not be an issue IMHO to work with a Nikon mount set up at home. (Nikon Lenses are not collimated to within 5 microns). When using any wide angle PL mounted or Zoom lens one has to be sure the mount is perfectly set.

A depth gauge is not that expensive but I doubt you can measure the chip without risk of damage to the sensor.

Stephen
 
Stephen I agree to point with you as I know how intricate the process is. Swapping mounts is definately not something I would want to tackle in the field. That said I sure hope Red is able to give us the ability to swap mounts at the office/home/shop when in a clean safe environment to be able to swap the mounts without the expense of having to own a collimator. I know you would have to be extremely careful but with kim wipes or quality swab's and alcohol we may be able to do it ourselves.

Hell I work in extremely dusty conditions here on westerns and mountain shoots and am still able to keep the pl mount itself clean enough that it does'nt throw out the lens.
 
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