Bummed!!!

S

sonisfear

Well-known member
We I am pretty bummed that I don't have the budget right now for a Red system. Especially looking at those 4K samples and zooming right into the eyelash and viewing each individual hair.

Hey Jim (Mr.Jannard) is there anyway you can arrange financing (leasing doesn't make sense cause you would never want to trade a collectors piece like this in) for the small indie guy who has potential to make it big with you tools?
 
We'll see if that is possible after we ship to all the reservation holders and firm orders we have next year.

Jim
 
sonisfear said:
We I am pretty bummed that I don't have the budget right now for a Red system. Especially looking at those 4K samples and zooming right into the eyelash and viewing each individual hair

...
for the small indie guy who has potential to make it big with you tools?
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The tools won't make it big for you.

Have you considered renting ?

We've (D&G) been doing it for years... What are your goals ?, What pragmatic use would you have for 4K ?, Do you work regularly as a freeelancer ?, Do you have the funds to for post production ?, What are your deliverables ?, Do you have financing for the most important aspect of any narrative production - Production Budget -, Do you have the time (if you're not acquainted with 35mm-style production) to learn and practice to get up to speed ? If not, do you have the connections or $ to get an experienced crew ?, Have you worked out all the variable options if you don't make it big on that one big picture ?, Have you incorporated, or filed for business apps ?, Worked out Insurance and Taxes ?,

I've been seeing many people recently talking about getting the $ 17.5K funds as the finish line. This is worrisome. $17.5K is only the very bare beginning. There will be productions and people who utilize this camera at the base $20K range, or those that go all the way to the multimillion dollar figure. However, they will all have had to ask and answer the aforementioned questions in great detail. The camera is a TOOL. It will not guarantee entry or excellence anywhere to anyone.

Although, I've waited years to purchase our own company camera; the resolution has only been one aspect among many variables. Frankly, there are more important variables in a production than resolution (heresy, I know;)

Please forgive the rant, and if you've considered all the exigencies of production and post, then you're ahead of the game. A business mentor of mine (a film producer) once told me that I'll know when it is the right time to invest in equipment. Or if I needed to invest at all. There will be no trepidation or scrambling too afford it. Good luck mate.

:beer:

EDIT: We're lucky to have Mr.Jannard here:beer:




RED# optimistically cautious
 
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Sonisfear you'll almost always get a better deal from your bank than a private company financing their product. This is true of cars, computers and cameras.
 
im.thatoneguy said:
Sonisfear you'll almost always get a better deal from your bank than a private company financing their product. This is true of cars, computers and cameras.
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Good advice...

Jim
 
Good advice...
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Yeah, but "Jannard National" has a ring to it! haha...

Oh, D and G
I've been seeing many people recently talking about getting the $ 17.5K funds as the finish line. This is worrisome. $17.5K is only the very bare beginning.
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Absolutely correct... the barest of beginnings...
 
D_and_G said:
...A business mentor of mine (a film producer) once told me that I'll know when it is the right time to invest in equipment. Or if I needed to invest at all. There will be no trepidation or scrambling too afford it. Good luck mate.
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The right time to invest in equipment is when the facts and figures and your motivations seem to coincide. That doesn't mean there won't be trepidation or scrambling to afford it, especially for low income people who are gambling their food and rent to follow their passion. Peace of mind is a luxury for the rich.
 
There are some good posts here at DVXUser regarding how purchase decisions should be made and how equipment financing figures into a legitimate businesses larger budget.

Though it might produce an amazing image, you would not likely run to Birns and Sawyer and buy a used Arri 35BL camera unless you had specific fiscally-supported and justified creative plans for it.

Unless you're subsidized to the point where your technology can afford to sit on the shelf as you write the next great American screenplay and learn the craft of filmmaking, I'd highly discourage the purchase of anything more than a DVX-class camera.

People are doing fine work - broadcast work (ask me how I know) - with the DVX and lesser cameras. To overextend yourself financially with dreams that the gear will make your career is a path to nowhere. I know this because I owned an Arriflex camera when I was still in high school - and the glorious lump largely sat idle on the shelf.

At any rate, I'll bet Jim would be the first to discourage the type of reckless fiscal behavior I undertook with my hard-earned after school resources - long before I had the patience, experience and credibility that comes with it to employ a device like RED.

Like you, I was told by older, established professionals to rent, learn and grow before jumping into gear with both feet.

Just $.3213 from a 36 year old old guy.

e
 
If you only plan to use Red for shooting features, and you haven't made (or better yet, sold) a feature before, and coming up with the money is a big stretch... it probably makes more sense to rent the camera.

Thing is, though, shooting features is not the only thing Red is good for. The way things are shaping up, the camera looks like it'll be versatile enough that anyone who is sufficiently creative should be able to keep their camera in regular use, generating income in a variety of ways.
 
sonisfear said:
We I am pretty bummed that I don't have the budget right now for a Red system. Especially looking at those 4K samples and zooming right into the eyelash and viewing each individual hair.
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Perhaps it's time to start negotiations with Madonna...:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
To answer some of these questions. I have grown up into this industry (practically here on DVXuser.com) buy chance on a weird reverse growth system.

If you buy it they (business) will come.

It is a weird lucky phenomenon that has happened to me over again.

I learn what I can through working for some else renting and then buying.
Take what ever free courses and maybe invest in a really good advanced course. Then buy the best tools I can afford.

I did this with my music studio, then the DVX100 at the time I was a real novice but drummed up a suprisingly decent amount of wedding business and now own the HD100 and Sony cam. Before the HD100 I knew nothing about real lens although still learning I can hold my own with any video camera.

My too greatest strengths is I work hard/do my best with what I have and I can sell anything to anyone anytime.

Look at Jim Janard he takes huge risks building a cam like this why?

If you build it they will come.

My gut tells me that if I have the Red cam and learn it/master it before summer I will make huge money from it.

I know it sounds crazy but no I don't have clear goals or projects mapped out, no specific pragmatic for 4k, I have most of what I need for post like the NEW MACPRO and Final Cut Studio, Deliverables will come as I learn the system. I do have a crew. No i will not use this cam on my weddings.

All I know that with just a little time and hard work and a demo to sell, I can sell my services to someone other newbie on the creative side of writing, screen play with a crew of actor talent that the two of us can make something BIG.

My ideas might sound crazy but I have way of making them work out. I have been doing weddings for a year in HD and delivering in HD when most of the wedding guys in this forum are just planning on HD this summer.
 
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Music videos is a great quick cash application of the RED. For some reason those clients keep requesting film even over HD. Iw ould take HD over 16mm anyday but RED I can sell.
 
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sonisfear said:
If you buy it they (business) will come.


My gut tells me that if I have the Red cam and learn it/master it before summer I will make huge money from it.

.
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Hi,

I don't think you will get work just because you buy a camera, remember 1000 other people will also own a Red camera.

What makes your work unique is your lighting skills.

Stephen
 
Yes lighting, yes lens, yes location, yes crew..yes.yes..yes..

All of these are not bad for me and still have a long way to-go. these are all part of the vehicle but the cam is the engine. without your engine your stagnant. but I can get moving without a door or the hood even headlights as long as I have the engine.

People said the simular things to me when I was about to buy the HD100.

Yes the first three weddings I got complaints mostly for trying to mix SD with HD, but man did I learn quick and wow what a difference the imaging made.

Lighting isn't a problem I have lights and I know direct lighting, fill lighting and key lighting with the gels yes. These skills don't get used much in live event and weddings but I am learning and using them in my pilots.

What about sound this is important too working on those skills and gear. I current produce wedding with surround sound simply by assignin rear cam stereo audio track as my rear audio, lav as center and lead cam shot gun as left and right. So easy most people do do this.

But if you show a potential client footage from a RED cam especially with its increased dynamic range in 1080p. Jess do you think they are not going to take you seriously?

I would be interested to know what lighting was used for the samples 4K still with the girls drinking milk outside. Could someone from RED elaborate on that?

What would that same scene with the same lights look like from a PD170 or DVX100.
 
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overlandfilms said:
Though it might produce an amazing image, you would not likely run to Birns and Sawyer and buy a used Arri 35BL camera unless you had specific fiscally-supported and justified creative plans for it.
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No, I wouldn't, but that's because in addition to the camera, you have to continually pay for stock, developing, processing, and telecine to make anything out of it. Film is continually draining on your financial resources.

RED, on the other hand (or any other tapeless camera, for that matter) continues to be useful and worthwhile for an eternity as long as the camera works. In my mind, there is an inherently huge difference.
 
You downplay the considerable difference between film and HD to a fault.

Regardless of the lack of a need for raw celluloid stock, you still have to have stacks of hard drives and subsequently a post-production infrastructure capable of handling RED.

Do most of us cutting in FCP or Vegas have the ability to cut and render 4k? Absolutely not.

I know firsthand what goes into delivering 13 episodes, thirteen hours from two-thousand, to broadcast deliverable at 1080i. It isn't done on a Mac with a bunch of LaCie drives stacked up on the corner of a desk.

The poster seems bent on having a trophy. A 4k capable trophy. For what? If $32k represents a strain - and this is just to get into the baseline camera with a RED variable prime lens - what about all the other project specific raw drive space and everything else below the line that goes into delivering HD / 2k / 4k?

Why on earth would someone buy a camera like this if it wasn't used in a fiscally-proven and sustainable way?

Nothing within this thread proves that the poster is a working professional with a current outlet to support the expenditure.

That is the point.

e
 
I am kind in a halfway position in regards to Red. I am just starting to get real paid work, and now with this camera package I anticipate it helping me grow further and take on bigger jobs.

I think there is a great deal of difference in lighting something like this, that has so much wider latitude than something like DV or any of the current lower end HD cameras. I look forward to Red in it giving me the opportunity to refine my lighting and thus make me a better cinematographer.

I have always felt that shooting 35mm film gave me so much more of an idea of how to balance light and shadow, but those opportunites have been fewer and farther between. Hopefully I can get back on the path with this camera, make a better rate and get better projects with the production value it can deliver.

I certainly do not expect it to be a miracle drug or any kind, but just a better tool. Sure, for myself, it is a sizeable finanacial investment, but I believe it is a worthy risk. And, if by chance you can not afford one now, relax - you can always rent!
 
Hello this is the poster...:^) I found that funny.

Believe it or not I am listening and putting great thought to this thread. I can get a little passionate with things. Truth is I don't have that kind of dough right now. Just dumped a load on the new MACPRO 3.0 quad machine and FCPS.

Progression is happening in steps. The only viable plan to justify this purchase for me is music videos. I thought of the scads of hard drives and the raw data processing and a four minute music video fits the bill.

But ..I wasn't planning on using the 4K right away anyway other than creating a short demo for sales purposes. I have a feeling that this cams 1080p rez and latitude is going to be pretty impressive.

The funny thing is I was recently at a Sony product training seminar which feature the XDcam. and it was suprising the amount of wedding videograhers and small indie companies that was showing interest in that system.

I thought to myself the RED would run circles around this cam system and would cost about the same.

I do believe that really good gear can catapult a user into a new category. I fell bad for anyone who has recently dumped $40,000.00 into a broadcast SD cam. Maybe if more creative indie guys like me had trophies and used them well it could upset the balance of producers who have been cornering the market for all these years.

I think one of the things that make a wild man like me dangerous on the market is the nothing to loose mentality. If I get this cam I am prepared to work on the first-maybe couple of project praticly free. I can make an offer that a no budget but talented film writer could not refuse. I rather work almost free than pay for courses and the end result will probably lead to more gigs.

Rent...Hmmm... Renting is what got me started and I still rent thing that I don't want to buy like battery belts only cause I know soon LED lights will take over for weddings anyway. The problem with renting a cam is that to really do well with you product you hafto know yourcam. You can't do this when renting unless you rent a lot. At that point you have invested alot of money that could have gone into the cam to own it. The Hd100 took me a bit to know that if I see this on the screen I am actually getting that to tape. The other thing is who really is going to rent a cam like this?


 
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overlandfilms said:
Why on earth would someone buy a camera like this if it wasn't used in a fiscally-proven and sustainable way?
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Perhaps he just wants a camera that takes nice pictures. There is no law that says you must be in business to buy a Red One.
 
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