What to buy: Canon XH A1 or Sony V1U?

Sean Michael

Sean Michael

Well-known member
These two cameras appear to be comparable in many respects. HDV, 24F/24p, $4k price range, 3CCD/3CMOS. Sony has HDMI out.

I think one of these will be my next camera. But which one? Anyone made this decision and reached a definitive conclusion?
 
It's kind of early to jump to any conclusions. But to be honest the images I saw from the A1 REALLY pleased me. The A1 has everything I always hoped for. A LOT of image control options, great DOF with awesome bokeh, good latitude, pro audio, VERY good pseudo progressive mode...but it all boils down to the footage. I love what I saw. If you have the money I would take the aditional money you would put on the sony and buy a 35mm adapter.
 
For me two the most important advantages of Canon A1 are:

- larger sensors

- progressive compression in F mode which is more effective than encoding interlaced signal.

The only negative side of that is F footage can't be played back on 50i or 60i HDV devices made by other manufacturers, but that's really not a big problem. Sensor's size matters as it makes shallower, more artistic DOF easier to obtain with the camera. 35mm adapters are not very convenient and not always handy. And yes, I love the footage provided by Kaku also. Sony V1 promises to be very good cam. The choice is not easy, but for me these two advantages were more than enough.
 
A lot of the HDV camera's native footage can't be replayed on other decks. JVC is included in this.

There's always an option of buying the Canon HV10. 1) You get a small playback deck for less than 1200 u.s. dollars. 2) A second HDV camera.

The HV10 DOES playback 24F footage, by the way. So you could master back to MiniDV, make two backups and carry the HV10 around to showcase your footage in HD via COmponent out, if you wanted.

V1 sounded nice at first, but I'm A1 or HVX all the way. Kaku Ito's footage sold me on the fact that he barely had time to play with it before getting us that great looking footage.
 
A couple of weeks ago I bought a Sony HC3 ($1250). I'm assuming it will play nice with the V1 footage, plus the HC3 has HDMI out. So anyone considering the V1 could probably use the HC3 as a cheap deck, too.

HVX, unfortunately, is impractical for me because of the P2 workflow.

I'm leaning toward the V1, but want to carefully consider the A1 before making a final decision.
 
From handling both the HC3 and HV10, I'd have to say the HV10 is much much better. That alone helps to inform my decision between A1 and V1u.

But I guess the best comparison will come when both cameras are released. If it's a hard decision then wait until January or February when both cameras will probably have been put through the paces.
 
I'd like to add one more thing. I like the idea of internal battery compartment in A1/G1. It fits largest BP packs and improves battery performance in extreme cold weather.
 
Ronbo said:
HDMI out and no vertical smear are making me lean toward the V1.
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I think these are great features/attributes, but to me, that extra DOF of 1/4" is a real bummer. It's hard enough to get decent subject isolation with 1/3", and now it's just that much harder. Another thing we've yet to see is if Sony's HDV encoder is improved over the FX1/Z1. I think it's another bummer that Sony decided to stick with 1080i recording of 24P. It's a signifigant waste of bandwidth to endode pulldown. PAL users will probably have a better image than their NTSC counterparts due to this issue alone.

Canon's 24F mode is noticeably more motion-artifact resistant because of efficient progressive encoding and only compressing 24 fps.

Plus, it's so nice to simply capture and edit in pure 24p. Pulldown is a pain for a lot of different reasons.
 
24F is also virtually indistinguishable from 24P.

I've yet to see a real difference between the two. Canon's 24F mode has also been around longer, improved upon.

To me, the A1 just stands out more. I like the HDMI out on the Sony, but hey... Component out is fine by me.
 
Resolution wise it's hard to tell which is better, the XH A1 has a 1440x1080 sensor, the V1U has a 960x1080 sensor. Three quarters full and half full. But the XH A1 is deinterlaced and has less verticle resolution. The V1U is progressive meaning it has greater verticle resolution. 1080p makes people go crazy over the camera, just look at the HVX200! But then look at the poor XL H1. The HVX200 has only one quarter the resolution of 1920x1080 with it's 960x540 sensor. So to a lot of people, resolution isn't the most important thing in the world.

Since the XH A1 records 24f as 48i, it may hold slightly less compression. But the V1U records 24p as 60i. Also, in Final Cut Pro, you cannot edit 30f, you'd have to use Adobe Premiere Pro. And 30p from the V1U is easily editable with any editing system that supports 1080i60.

Workflow: 60i vs 60i, draw. 30f vs 30p, 30p wins. 24f vs 24p, 24f is easier but 24p can be edited by a wide range of NLE's.
 
personally speaking, i find it pretty hard not to get excited about the a1. i'll probably wait to see a little more of the v1u in action before i make a purchase, but if the a1 is really the xl-h1 sans the lens mount and sdi jackpack, i don't know if i need to see anything more. purely on picture alone, for me, the xl-h1 produces the most gorgeous images of any of the sub 10k hd cams, hdv or otherwise. add to that the pretty price tag and the redrock-friendly form factor, i'm pretty much sold on the canon.
 
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AuditoryVisuals said:
Resolution wise it's hard to tell which is better, the XH A1 has a 1440x1080 sensor, the V1U has a 960x1080 sensor. Three quarters full and half full. But the XH A1 is deinterlaced and has less verticle resolution. The V1U is progressive meaning it has greater verticle resolution. 1080p makes people go crazy over the camera, just look at the HVX200! But then look at the poor XL H1. The HVX200 has only one quarter the resolution of 1920x1080 with it's 960x540 sensor. So to a lot of people, resolution isn't the most important thing in the world.

Since the XH A1 records 24f as 48i, it may hold slightly less compression. But the V1U records 24p as 60i. Also, in Final Cut Pro, you cannot edit 30f, you'd have to use Adobe Premiere Pro. And 30p from the V1U is easily editable with any editing system that supports 1080i60.

Workflow: 60i vs 60i, draw. 30f vs 30p, 30p wins. 24f vs 24p, 24f is easier but 24p can be edited by a wide range of NLE's.
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The new Final Cut upgrade alllows you to work with 24F HDV which means 24F can also be edited, now, in a wide range of NLE's.

Considering resolution isn't what people care about, you definitely can't say that the V1u, at this time, has anything over the XH A1. The footage we've seen from both clearly shows the A1 has the best image. I'd suggest waiting until the cameras go through their respective shoot-outs if you want to base the decision on the final image (which most should do.).

None of these cameras are 1080p. At most, they've the ability to do 1080i.

The more people speculate on which one is better, the more it's obvious that they should wait for a shoot-out, more footage from other users or until they can do their own tests.
 
One plus for the V1 is the optional factory hard drive. $1800 gets you a 60GB Sony hard drive for tapeless recording. It interacts with the V1 natively (ie. info appears on the V1 LCD screen) & has a special anti-shock drop protection feature. I haven't seen anything like this from Canon.

I have a Redrock M2. Is the Canon more M2-friendly than the Sony?
 
Sean Michael said:
I have a Redrock M2. Is the Canon more M2-friendly than the Sony?
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sorry sean... should have been clearer. i was comparing the xl form factor, which i've been using for years, with the a1's. not saying the a1's form factor is 'better', but it is certainly more m2 friendly.
 
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henry cho said:
sorry sean... should have been clearer. i was comparing the xl form factor, which i've been using for years, with the a1's. not saying the a1's form factor is 'better', but it is certainly more m2 friendly.
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Thanks for the clarification. I really do like the form factor of the A1. It reminds me of a DVX (in a good way).
 
AuditoryVisuals said:
Resolution wise it's hard to tell which is better, the XH A1 has a 1440x1080 sensor, the V1U has a 960x1080 sensor. Three quarters full and half full. But the XH A1 is deinterlaced and has less verticle resolution.
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Actually, the way the Canon image is processed is full for the HDV 1440X1080i format.

Something to consider: The Canon sensor has widescreen 1.2 AR pixels that actually give it an effective horizontal resolution of well over 1600 pixels. From there, the camera only performs horizontal pixel shift to reach 1920. (which is an accepted method of gaining resolution) And HDV 1080i is an anamorphic format, which is meant to be "unsqueezed" to the full 1920x1080 HD spec.

For some reason, many seem to disregard the value of great horizontal resolution. The Canon, through internal processing, is effectively oversampled for the recording format and this helps it to achieve a very sharp, detailed look.

The Sony should maintain it's vertical resolution, but it's stretching a heavily interpolated horizontal reading of the sensor to fill in an "unsqueezed" 1920x1080 image, so it may be a wash as to which camera has better resolution.

Since the XH A1 records 24f as 48i, it may hold slightly less compression.
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Again, some misinformation. HDV 24F mode is a PROGRESSIVE encoding and recording. The CCD's are read in such a manner that the encoder is fed a progressive 24p sequence, which allows for better compression efficiency. There's no 48i to tape.

Also, in Final Cut Pro, you cannot edit 30f
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As a matter of fact you can. It's just not a specific preset, you have to make your own custom preset that uses the 1080p 24 HDV compressor, but you change the frame rate to 29.97.

And 30p from the V1U is easily editable with any editing system that supports 1080i60.
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Same with 30F(P) mode. It can be captured in 1080i HDV easily.

Workflow: 60i vs 60i, draw. 30f vs 30p, 30p wins. 24f vs 24p, 24f is easier but 24p can be edited by a wide range of NLE's.
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24F workflow is very easy with the latest FCP. Other NLE's work well too but as of right now FCP can actually print a 24F/P sequence to HDV tape.
 
Sean Michael said:
One plus for the V1 is the optional factory hard drive. $1800 gets you a 60GB Sony hard drive for tapeless recording. It interacts with the V1 natively (ie. info appears on the V1 LCD screen) & has a special anti-shock drop protection feature. I haven't seen anything like this from Canon.

I have a Redrock M2. Is the Canon more M2-friendly than the Sony?
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There are plenty of other devices that, while not interacting directly with the camera, can capture footage from any camera. Sony's product is okay, but it's weighing in at 1800 when you can buy a Firestore for a few hundred more and get 100 gigs.
 
Some of the cameras that received the awards weren't even tested yet. :huh: What do they base this on?!?!
 
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