new 16:9 squeeze vs. 4:3 question (hopefully not a re-hash)

C

cflamm

Active member
first of all, i did numerous searches to find the answer to this...couldn't find it. if this has BEEN answered before, please either answer again or direct me to the proper thread. please be kind. flaming is not necessary.

i work at a broadcast station. i am tasked to do a project that will be viewable in both 4:3 and 16:9. (we won't go into why. that's just the way it is.)

from what i understand:

the only way to have one project do both of these is to shoot in 16:9 and export to dvd and the dvd player will know whether i have a 4:3 TV or a 16:9 TV and out put accordingly.


i don't have that option - it will be broacast, so as i understand it, i will have to create two projects, one 4:3 and one 16:9.

i have two questions but i guess the second is dependent on the answer to the first.

with 4:3 footage, importing to a 16:9 timeline, i zoom the footage to fill in the empty vertical space. the image is now distorted on a 4:3 set, but fine on a 16:9 set, as it should be. correct so far?

so, first question: if i import 16:9 footage into a 4:3 timeline, then zoom to fill in the empty horizontal space, will the image be fine on a 4:3 set and distorted on a 16:9 set?

second question:

for 16:9, from all that i've read, it's better to shoot 4:3, where you won't loose resolution, import to 16:9 timeline and zoom (where some resolution will now be lost.

for 4:3, no problem, no resolution lost BUT: if i'm shooting only once, for both 4:3 and 16:9 viewing, then i have to frame the 4:3 for 16:9 while shooting. so when converted to 16:9 fine, good picture with framing. but with 4:3, more head room and bottom than i want. so the question is if i shoot in 4:3, framing for 16:9, but import to a 4:3 timeline for the 4:3 project, i will still have to zoom in to loose the excesive headroom, ergo, loss of resolution again.

so in this case, would it matter whether i shoot 4:3 or 16:9? the only problem i see shooting 16:9 for 4:3 is that first, i loose resolution shooting 16:9 to start with and then when i import the 16:9 to the 4:3 timeline and zoom in to fill the aspect ratio, i'm loosing even more resolution. does this sound right?

anything i missed?

thanks very much in advance

carl
 
Well it all depends on how it will be broadcast.

A single broadcast can only be one aspect ratio. 4:3 or 16:9. Different stations have different meathods for dealing with aspect ratios. I would advice you check with yoru station's transmission department to query how this is handled.
Though with DTV, some station now simulcast a 4:3 SD stream and a 16:9 HD stream.

Normally a program is produced in one format only, and then modified for any needed broadcast in the other formats.
Generally it's preferabel to shoot and produce a 16:9 master. This is broadcast normally as 16:9. THen a 4:3 submaster is created in one of 2 ways. The 16:9 image can be letterboxed, creating a 4:3 image - this shows the whole 16:9 image, but leaves black bars that some views don't like ("why are they covering up part of the picture?"). The other option is to zoom in the 16:9 to perfrom a "Pan & Scan" whichs crops off the sides of the 16:9 image, leaving a fullscreen 4:3 image. The plus us that it fills the full screen, the downside is that it (orionically) is actually cutting off some of the original image.
Sometimes a hybrid methos is used, zoomeign slightly loosing on ly a bit from teh edge of the image, but leaving mcuh thinner black bars - the resulting image aspect ratio is 14:9 - halfway between 16:9 and 12:9 (4:3).

Shootign with a 4:3 camera and producting a 4:3 master with a 16:9 submaster is also of course possible. But agian you end up with black bars on the sides of the 16:9 image or you loose some of the 4:3 image (the top & bottom this time) - this is harder as the effects on a vertical crop on headroom are much more adverse than the effects of a horizontal crop on coposition.

Unfortuantly there is no clear answer for all situations. It is best to talk to the distributer (Transmission Dept. for you) and go with their requests & advice.

- Mikko
 
thank you very much mikko for your complete and understandable answer.

believe it will be broadcast 4:3 as i'm pretty sure our chief engineer will not want to switch to 16:9 for "only one program, and not hi-def at that."

question to this part of your reply:

"Then a 4:3 submaster is created in one of 2 ways. The 16:9 image can be letterboxed, creating a 4:3 image - this shows the whole 16:9 image, but leaves black bars"

don't want to do pan and scan. how would i do the above method in final cut? import the 16:9 into a 4:3 timeline and what? and will this method make the 16:9 appear full screen on 16:9 sets and letterboxed on 4:3 sets?
 
Unfortunalty a broadcast is only 4:3 OR 16:9. - One monitor WILL stretch the image when displayed nativly. However...

If you are broadcasting 4:3 then it will look normal on a 4:3 monitor.
A 16:9 monitor will do one of 3 things (depending on what it's features & setup are - this all depends on the viewer):
- It will display the image full screen, this will case the image to stretch horzontally making everyone "fat". This is always the wrong way to display a 4:3 image on a 16:9 screen.
- It will ad black bars to the sides, preserving the original 4:3 image correctly in the middle.
- It will zoom in the 4:3 image - cropping the top and bottom (and destroying your head-room) untill the sides reach the edge of the screen.

Your program shoudl be made with all these eventuallties in mind. You have 2 options:

1.
Produce a 4:3 program. But keep in midn that some 16:9 viewere *may* crop top & bottom, so be sure to keep everything critial away from the top & bototm of the image. A smart 16:9 veiwer will adjust their TV to ad the black bars to the sides and show the correct 4:3 image in their 16:9 display. Some viewers will also have their TV's set to stretch teh iamge to ful screen, everyoen will look fat, but you dont' loose anythgin and you use the whole display area.
4:3 viewers will of course see a normal 4:3 program.

2.
Produce a 16:9 program and then letterbox it for 4:3 broadcast.
This way a 16:9 view can not crop any of the image. If they have their TV set up to display a 4:3 image by adding bars, the end result will be a 16:9 image with black bars on the sides AND top & bottom, resultign in a "windowed" picture on the 16:9 TV. The image well be correct, but smaller then necesarry. Again some 16:9 viewers will end up streatchign the 4:3 image too, resulting in the ugliest result possible. They will have "fat" people stretched horizontally, and still have the letterbox bars top & bottom too!
A smart 16:9 veiwer will adjust their TVs to zoom in the 4:3 broadcast so that it cuts off the top and bottom of the image (which are just the black letterbox bars) and as a result the 16:9 picture fills thwier display correctly.
A 4:3 viewer will see a correct aspect ratio letterboxed image. Again this will raise the issue of some viewers wondering they black bars appear to cover up some of their picture.

There is no "correct" solution, as both meathods provide a correct image possibilty for all viewers allbiehg tsome viewers will still be unhappy.
Ideal scenarios for both systems:
A 4:3 production & broadcast. Correct on a 4:3 TV of course. 16:9 veiwers should have their TVs to add black bars to the sides.
A 16:9 production broadcast as letterboxed to 4:3. Correct, but with black bars on a 4:3 TV. 16:9 viewers shoudl have thier TV zoom in and crop off the letterbox to show the 16:9 image full screen.


It's a choice that must be made for each production. - Normally it's best to check with station policy and use the same method for most broadcasts so that viewers can use one set up to satify all options.

This isn't always the case. For example NBC produces both "The Tonight Show With Jay Leno" and "Late Night With Conan O'Brian" in 16:9 HD.
When they downscale to 4:3; The Tonight Show is cropped (and most SD viewers don't know they are missing the edges), but Late Night is letterboxed.
Someone watching the SD broadcast on a 16:9 TV has to switch their TV from 4:3-with-side-bars mode to 4:3-cropped-top&bottom mode between programs. A little strange if you ask me. Of course HD viewers just see both shows in full 16:9. ... (here's the twist) except those viewers that are useing an external downconverter to recive the 16:9 HD signal and then downconvert it to a 4:3 SD TV themselves - they can choose how the conversion to 4:3 happens (letterbox or cropping) themselves and it will be consistant for both programs! Go figure.


- Mikko
 
Mikko, just wanted to chime in here and give credit where it's due. This thread has nothing to do with me, and I haven't had ANY experience in any type of broadcast company, but your explanations here are very thorough and extremely simple to understand. I actually learned a bit ;)

It's posts like these that really make a difference and help people out. Thanks man.

-brown
 
How are you going to supply it to the station... already encoded to mpeg... if so... can't you just set the flag to display in 16x9 or 4 x 3... cheers
 
Lez, That depends a LOT on the station and how it transmits.

If it's an anlaog station, then there are no Flags that can pss through the broadcast - the Flag would be used in the player at the station, and that's it.
If it's a digital station, then there is more flexibilty, but that is something best discussed with the station engineeres as they may need to make changes to dynamic PID, etc..

- Mikko
 
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