Any need for P2 card with firestore upgrade ?

Mathew Knight

Mathew Knight

Active member
is there any reason to own or use a P2 card when the firestore has its version 3.0 update so it can handle native frame rates (and variable frame rates).

Will P2 cards be redundant ? (Because of their price)
 
There are plenty of situations where not having another external device with another cable and another battery and another fan would be an advantage. Also, hard drives really don't like vibration....

I guess it all depends on how you use the HVX.
 
THoff said:
There are plenty of situations where not having another external device with another cable and another battery and another fan would be an advantage. Also, hard drives really don't like vibration....

I guess it all depends on how you use the HVX.
Click to expand...
the only thing I can think of is if you are mounting to a race car or something. Then it would be nice not to have the firestore. But I have recently been shooting with the firestore mounting on the top handle (with a snap plate screwed into handle and extra strength velcro holding it on. very portable, very light. I do worry about dust but so far no problem. I did have it plastic wrapped in the rain.

But really its when I look at the price of one 8GB card compared to a firestore. Why waste that kind of money for a slightly lighter camera.

When a card is the only way to shoot native variable frame rates then I see the bonus. Without that, better to buy a firestore.
 
Last edited:
The battery life on the firestore is its big disadvantage. With P2 and the right workflow you can potentially shoot continuously away from mains power but I am frustrated that a device which can hold several hours of footage can only record for a fraction of that time.

You would know more than me about the firestore Matthew as I dont own one but it strikes me that battery life needs to get significantly better for the device to become suitable for me and I am incredibly skeptical about moving hardrives around while shooting. we can be confident that P2 cards can take the knocks, Id also be confident that a few knocks could possibly kill a firestore. Its not a criticism of the product, but an inescapable truth, hardrives are fragile.

so for me, I can see a use for the firestore in suitable shooting situations and you are right, P2 cards are still way too expensive but I would sooner work with three P2 cards and a laptop. Id be confident in covering any situation with that setup, not so much with a firestore.
 
You're right about hard drives being fragile, but I want to say that I've dropped my Firestore FS4 a few times (flimsy belt clip), and surprisingly it survived! So they probably have some shock mounting in there.

One problem I do have with Firestore is that sometimes it doesn't record when I push the record button. This is an annoyance with a DVX, but at least you can go to the tape for backup. With an HVX, you need to check that it's recording every time you push that button.
 
It's all about moving parts along with reliability..
HARD DRIVE (firestore) = EASY TO BREAK, can be unreliable in certain conditions
P2 = VERY HARD TO BREAK (people have washed them) MOST RELIABLE FORM OF MEDIA EVER CREATED (for the public)

It's like two roads..
ROAD 1 has a few pot holes and you might get a flat, or wreck your car, but the speed limit is a faster..

ROAD 2 is smooth sailing, it's the road you take your kids home on.. but it takes a few more moments to get home..
Buckle UP with the firestore..
 
Richard Sutcliffe said:
The battery life on the firestore is its big disadvantage. With P2 and the right workflow you can potentially shoot continuously away from mains power but I am frustrated that a device which can hold several hours of footage can only record for a fraction of that time.

You would know more than me about the firestore Matthew as I dont own one but it strikes me that battery life needs to get significantly better for the device to become suitable for me and I am incredibly skeptical about moving hardrives around while shooting. we can be confident that P2 cards can take the knocks, Id also be confident that a few knocks could possibly kill a firestore. Its not a criticism of the product, but an inescapable truth, hardrives are fragile.

so for me, I can see a use for the firestore in suitable shooting situations and you are right, P2 cards are still way too expensive but I would sooner work with three P2 cards and a laptop. Id be confident in covering any situation with that setup, not so much with a firestore.
Click to expand...
The firestore I used came with a thin battery (which I guess is standard) and a bigger battery (which I think is an accessory) and with a seperate charger. they were more than adequate for a days shooting. the big battery almost lasted a 10-12 hr day (not continuously used, but on a lot, no mains power). And they recharged very quickly so I found battery life to be perfect really, no issues. But I can see that it is vital to get the larger capacity battery & the external charger on top of the standard battery.
My experience with the firestore has been very positive. I also had it mounted on the handle which was great really, perfect spot.
I am also scared of the ruggedness of the firestore (someone dropping it on concrete for instance), but its very easy to offload the contents to a laptop at convenient times to back up as you go (easier than offloading a P2 card if you have a macbook pro).
the last job I used the firestore on was a 6 day shoot, 80% exteriors, rain, dust, shooting on 4 wheeler bikes, back of motor cycles and on a glide-cam. And zero reliability problems. We wrapped it in a sheet of clear plastic when it rained. So i was impressed by it. (We also shot to P2 cards simultaneously because I was still scared of P2)
But saying that I love the playback options on P2 cards. But $2500 ? Its too much. We rented 6 cards for the shoot which was nice, but its makes for a much slower transfer process than one firestore (just because of changing the cards, naming files etc.
And now I am looking at longer format documentary's which cards seem to just be impossible because of the longer record times.
 
Last edited:
Sumfun said:
You're right about hard drives being fragile, but I want to say that I've dropped my Firestore FS4 a few times (flimsy belt clip), and surprisingly it survived! So they probably have some shock mounting in there.

One problem I do have with Firestore is that sometimes it doesn't record when I push the record button. This is an annoyance with a DVX, but at least you can go to the tape for backup. With an HVX, you need to check that it's recording every time you push that button.
Click to expand...
You can see on the HVX LCD screen a red indicator next to '1394' that goes from a pause symbol to a red dot when the firestore is recording. but I certainly pause to look at the firestore screen to check it. Once I had turned the camera and firestore on in the wrong order and it didn't record when I pushed the cameras record button. But I have got used to checking it.
 
Mathew Knight said:
is there any reason to own or use a P2 card when the firestore has its version 3.0 update so it can handle native frame rates (and variable frame rates).

Yes, for one simple reason: 25PN writes only to the P2 card bus, not to 1394. So if you want variable frame rates, it's the P2 or anything that reads from that output. If you don't need VFR, Firestore is the way. Unless Firestore 3 takes its data from the P2 slot?

Tom
Click to expand...
 
rgbuser said:
Mathew Knight said:
is there any reason to own or use a P2 card when the firestore has its version 3.0 update so it can handle native frame rates (and variable frame rates).

Yes, for one simple reason: 25PN writes only to the P2 card bus, not to 1394. So if you want variable frame rates, it's the P2 or anything that reads from that output. If you don't need VFR, Firestore is the way. Unless Firestore 3 takes its data from the P2 slot?

Tom
Click to expand...
the reason I ask this question is because firestore has just announced that its version 3.0 upgrade will record native frame rates.
Click to expand...
 
P2 is a hell of a lot more convenient. Lighter camera. Just pop them in and record. No fiddling with the Firewire or clip playback on the FS100. No batteries. No worries about it being dropped (and I've heard at least two people tell me that their FS-100 broke after being dropped). No worries about frame drop outs or damaged clips.
 
DavidBeier said:
P2 is a hell of a lot more convenient. Lighter camera. Just pop them in and record. No fiddling with the Firewire or clip playback on the FS100. No batteries. No worries about it being dropped (and I've heard at least two people tell me that their FS-100 broke after being dropped). No worries about frame drop outs or damaged clips.
Click to expand...
Yeah but big worry's about recording capacity. And I have had no dropouts for 10 hours or so of recording on the firestore (at 1080). And lets face it dropping the camera is a big no-no as is dropping the firestore. And I would still offload the firestore to an external drive via a laptop. Either at lunch or at the end of the day. And this is much quickwer than offloading multiple cards.
I had to rent 6 cards for a job which is almost the rental price of the camera. Sure you can do it with two cards but then you have to add a loader to the crew (unless you have all the time in the world to offload, but i certainly don't).
I'm not saying the cards are no good, but for the buy price or hire price they seem to me almost obsolete now (once the firestore upgrade is out).
 
Last edited:
They are not the same; just try both and you'll see. Try playing back clips for example, and you'll see how very different they are.

P2 = sports car. Firestore = school bus. Yes they're both modes of transportation, and yes theoretically both could get you to and from work, but they're different tools which are more appropriate for different jobs.
 
I use both P2 and FS-100.
I prefer the FS-100 (though battery life sucks)

I'll prefer it even more when focus enhancements releases firmware v3.0 to
support 720/24p and others.

Playback of the P2 is odd when you have mixed formats and have to change
the record format before you can play a clip back. I didn't like off loading to a laptop when the cards were full and I didn't like the idea of buying a P2Store.

Playback on the FS-100 sucks when you have to scroll through 100 clips (unless you put them in reels).

Of course, I don't own enough P2 cards to ever worry about having 100 clips which was about 60-70GB.

As already mentioned, I have hit the record on my HVX200 and wasn't really recording to the FS-100. But I too got used to using them together.

I don't mount my FS-100 to a camera, although sometimes I wish I would get the mount for it. I use the cheap phone clip that came with the unit and wear
it on my belt clip. This doesn't add any weight to the camera. But don't ever
forget you are connected to the camera when the camera is on a tripod and you start walking away. I did it and it wasn't my smartest move. Now I connect the clip to the hand strap of the hvx200 when it's on a tripod.

All in all, it seems some like the P2 cards and others like the FS-100. I believe it does boil down to what works best for the user. Of course I didn't buy enough P2 cards and/or multiple FS-100's to be biased about either.

Anyway, I saw the subject and wanted give some input...
 
The Firestore weighs next to nothing, so weight is not a factor.
The larger battery lasts for freakin' ever.
If you need shots longer than what P2 cards can give you, it's the solution.
I use one exclusively in very harsh conditions, bouncing/vibrating boat, bouncing/vibrating cars, etc, no problems at all.

Like Barry says, each has it's pros and cons, neither is the 100% answer for 100% of the shooting situations we all encounter. Which features do you need?
 
Thanks for the update on battery life guys, the last reports I had heard were that some users were getting less than an hours use out of this thing before it dies. I would never choose one over P2 for certain shoots (and matthew, you are braver than me using it in the situations you are using it) but for your long form doco scenarios it would be totally workable with a full days worth of battery life. Good to hear.

Matthew, it would be good to make contact with you sometime. I don't get to wellington very often. I'll PM you.
 
Richard Sutcliffe said:
Thanks for the update on battery life guys, the last reports I had heard were that some users were getting less than an hours use out of this thing before it dies. I would never choose one over P2 for certain shoots (and matthew, you are braver than me using it in the situations you are using it) but for your long form doco scenarios it would be totally workable with a full days worth of battery life. Good to hear.

Matthew, it would be good to make contact with you sometime. I don't get to wellington very often. I'll PM you.
Click to expand...
I wasn't that brave. Thats exactly why I was shooting to firestore & p2 cards simultaneously, because I was scared of either going down. But in the future I think it will be one or the other.
 
I've used both. P2 gives me MUCH more peace of mind. I shoot action sports mainly, and I missed a very important shot (that couldn't be redone) due to the Firewire cable on my Firestore not holding a good connection. I sold my Firestore that day. I'm not saying the Firestore is bad, BUT P2 is the safest way to record HD with your HVX. And it is also the most convenient (unless you start shooting longer sessions, and have to add the whole change card routine to the mix).

I am still tempted to retry the Firestore, but I know once 16GB P2 Cards come out, I will never think twice about hard drive recorders like the Firestore. So I patiently wait for them. I see P2 Cards having a firm place in the Panasonic and HVX workflow for years to come. If anybody is in trouble, it is the hard drive devices like the Firestore. Once P2 Cards quadrouple in size, and hit rock bottom prices, these devices will be a thing of the past.
 
I shoot action stuff hand held, and I never had problems. You just have to make sure your camera is rigged properly. 32GB still limits your shooting much more than 100GB. Hard drive devices will never be replaced unless Panny makes 100GB cards, which won't be any time in the next couple of years.

I use my FS-100 in very harsh conditions, it gets bumped, damp, abused, never a problem. And I need much longer recording times than even 32GB of P2 card will give me. I may have to shoot 20-30 minutes non-stop. There's not going to be a P2 card out to handle that any time soon.

There are plenty of us out here perfectly happy with the FS-100. Like anything else you add on to the camera rig, you have to use your brain to rig it properly. After that, it works great. Right angled Firewire cables don't pop out, you just have to "think" before you slap a peripheral onto your rig.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top