HVX with HDV tape format instead of DV...

Milkbone

Milkbone

Member
Ok.. this is actually a new thread started off of something that Barry said in another thread. I didn't want to clog that thread with this question. Remember, it's just a theoretical question...

Barry_Green said:
Well, maybe. I mean, the DVX is still selling so they're in no rush to replace it, but I'd like to see them shovel the HVX chipset and an AVC-HD encoder into the DVX body and call it the HVX100. I think it'd be a huge seller.

I don't know that I would use it, I'm no fan of long-GOP encoding. But for those who are finding HDV acceptable, I can't see why they wouldn't be thrilled at AVC-HD, which is over twice as efficient at encoding as HDV is, plus it's full-raster (no prefiltering/scaling going on) and it includes true 24p in both the 1080 and 720 modes, plus uncompressed audio in 7.1 channels or dolby digital AC-3 encoding in 5.1 channels.
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So here's the theoretical question... and I have a point, but I want to get honest answers before I discuss the point:

Q: IF the HVX had HDV as a tape format instead of DV... so you had the choice of shooting DVCPRO HD to P2 cards (expensive and short capture times) or you could record HDV codec to a DV tape... would still exclusively shoot DVCPRO HD to P2 cards, or would you find yourself saying.. oh for this project the HDV will be good enough?

Since I'm new to this forum and don't know who everyone is.. please let me know if you're an HVX owner with your answer. No offense to those who don't have, but it means more coming from someone using the camera now.

(oh.. also, I'm going with HDV in the question instead of AVC-HD because the AVC is specs on paper at this point.. HDV is being used and we know what it looks like.. etc.)
 
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I actually chose the HVX, because I would like to avoid HDV at all costs.

Those costs are admittedly high... compared to HDV, but to me the DV/DVCPRO deal is the dealmaker.

That said, I wouldn't mind another codec.
Wavelet codecs seems to be the name of the game, not only at Red.

If what pannasonic and Barry is arguing, that the chip is really 1920 x 1080 (whatever way you get those numbers) I wouldn't mind having a codec that was actually able to record those pixels in an I-frame codec.

But HDV...

I sorta decided that was not what I wanted. Not to say you cannot make stunning images with an HDV cam. And Sony scores for putting in an SDI on their new cams.

My 2 cents
Gunleik
 
More choice = better for the consumer. They've said they'll never put HDV on the HVX or on any Panasonic product, but you'd better believe I'm nagging them about the idea of putting AVC-HD on their new products.

I would go for the I-frame codec every single time I could. But frankly, there are times when it's just not the most practical choice right now. I mean, I'd go for an HVX over an HC1 every single time too, but there are times when a little tiny camera is the better tool for the job than a big football-sized camera. For some tasks long recording times will matter more than frame-accurate quality. So an HVX with the option of AVC-HD hits all the right notes, I think.
 
As an HVX owner, I agree with Barry--I would love a smaller form factor camera with a AVC-HD codec to complement the HVX. Not as interested in HDV, unless there is no other option.

I'll get the HVX100 when it comes out! :beer:
 
Well as an ex owner of a Sony FX1, I must admit I miss the HDV to tape. I have used an FX1 for over a year and it was a bloody good camera. Ideal for wedding videgraphy, shooting the family etc and then playing it back on a big plasma screen with stunning results.

Of course its HDV, but HDV records to tape, and IMO HDV is a much better product than DV.
 
I had the opportunity to review a HD feed of some Z1U footage we shot earlier this year. Basketball game

It was pretty nice. Still post production is an issue. Love to see some AVC-HD implementation for a B camera.
 
Well first off, it's not just the codec but the benafits of tapeless workflow. It means, to me at least, not worrying about having to digitize, not having to buy a deck for it so I don't destroy my camera head, and instant scene access.

I guess it would depend on what I was shooting. I did a promo DVD and initially wanted to shoot some parts P2 and some mini-DV since it would end up on an SD-DVD. Ultimatly however, the P2 workflow (being able to jump to any clip immediatly is so great) along with the greater color space were so great that I shot the whole thing P2. I'd also hate to mess with the interframe encoding of HDV. For narrative and commercial film work you really can't beat P2.

On the other hand, if was just shooting a wedding or some freelance stuff for a TV station where I didn't have to digitize or editi it and I didn't care that much about the quality of the footage, then I'd be fine with HDV.
 
Thanks for the feedback..

Couple of things.. To David.. when I shoot, I keep rolling. Many times I've missed the shot because I turned off the camera too fast. One time (early in my career) I even got out of sync with the record button and was very embarrassed when I got back to digitize it all in and found that I only recorded me saying "ok, let's do it again" over and over. I learned, "tape is cheap." Now, with the HVX I would have to change a lot about the way I acquire footage.

Here's what's going on.. and maybe I should have a conversation with Steve Shovlar.. I'm currently an FX1 owner. But, last year I edited a show shot on Varicam and I had to buy a 1200 for that job. I really LOVED the quality of that footage. Awesome! At one point I cut in FX1 footage in with the varicam stuff and it actually worked good. (side note: I have some methods in FCP to convert the footage from 1080i to 720p)

Anyway, I've also been doing work with my FX1 and have shot a couple of things with it. (I can post stills or samples if anyone's interested.) Overall I'm happy with the FX1, but I think I'm ready to "upgrade" to a 720p camera... and want one that shoots true 24fps.

So I got into this forum to research the Panasonic, which I had never considered before. A buddy told me that the workflow isn't as bad as I had feared. I was also looking at the JVC, but am a little worried about it being too 'conspicuous.' You can't pretend you're shooting a home movie with that huge lens. Not a huge issue, but a concern. And I can only afford one HD cam at this point. SO I use it for work, and to shoot footage of the baby. ;)

After reading around on this forum for a few days.. I've almost decided to NOT get the HVX and just keep my FX1 for a while. My question above was an indirect way of asking how much a pain in the ass the shooting workflow is, and in the long run if the convienance of HDV maybe outweighs the supposed quality issue. You guys all seem fairly comitted to the HVX (which is great), but I was wondering, how is it really? Would you sacrafice "quality" for convenience?

I say 'supposed' because I've been mostly happy with the quality. And I've never experienced any of the motion problems. I do notice the color space compression, video compression, non-quare pixels, and the long GOP sucks. But it's all give and take. There's gonna be some compromise somewhere. HDV it not uncompressed 4:2:2 HD, but the image sensor is good. Debatably better than the one on the HVX. I downloaded the combi tests and it sort of scared me away from the HVX. At least made it not an easy decision.

By the way.. I'm not debating HDV vs AVC-HD cause it's still long gop and therefore only an aqusition format. I love the DVCPRO HD. Barry, you know what I really wish they'd do.. use the tape drive in the HVX to actually put 100mps on a DV tape in LP mode. You'd wouldn't get much on each tape, but my 1200A would play it.


OK.. sorry for the digressions.. so I have 3 options:

1. sell my old VX2000, my FX1, and some other gear to raise enough money to buy the HVX.

2. sell everything to buy the JVC100U.

3. keep my FX1 and wait a year or two to 'upgrade.'

Things I'm concerned about.

* I want to start shooting in progressive, and actually have the option of 24p.
* I'd rather shoot in DVCPRO HD, so that I can edit natively in it an master to it.
* It would be nice to get something that works with my $1000/month deck.
* Color space matters to me, but again.. it's give and take.
* I do need to be able to shoot as much footage as I want on a given project. So for the HVX that means spending even more on big P2 cards and keeping my powerbook nearby on a shoot.
* maybe what I have is good enough.

I really would love more feedback!
 
I'd be happy if the HVX could take DVC PRO HD tapes. At least until P2 cards are cheaper and bigger.
 
Milkbone said:
Things I'm concerned about.

* I want to start shooting in progressive, and actually have the option of 24p.
* I'd rather shoot in DVCPRO HD, so that I can edit natively in it an master to it.
* It would be nice to get something that works with my $1000/month deck.
* Color space matters to me, but again.. it's give and take.
* I do need to be able to shoot as much footage as I want on a given project. So for the HVX that means spending even more on big P2 cards and keeping my powerbook nearby on a shoot.
* maybe what I have is good enough.

I really would love more feedback!
Click to expand...

I think you need to sell everything except the AJ-1200 and get yourself a HDX-900:beer:
 
Well, that's great except where do I get the extra $20,000? I've got a FX1 and a VX2000 to sell.. maybe another grand worth of other stuff.. so from that I can barely raise enough there to cover the price of the HVX200. Not to mention P2 cards, extra batteries, etc.
 
Abaddon said:
I'd be happy if the HVX could take DVC PRO HD tapes. At least until P2 cards are cheaper and bigger.
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If Pana did this, the camera wouldn't be nearly as small as it is and would be a lot more expensive, more so then P2 is now...
 
Milkbone said:
Thanks for the feedback..

Couple of things.. To David.. when I shoot, I keep rolling. Many times I've missed the shot because I turned off the camera too fast. One time (early in my career) I even got out of sync with the record button and was very embarrassed when I got back to digitize it all in and found that I only recorded me saying "ok, let's do it again" over and over. I learned, "tape is cheap."
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've recorded the in between takes a few times and wasted about a half hour of footage total with me pushing the record button at the wrong time on my last flick (never missed any shots since I always make sure we're recording before I call action).

That said, P2 is really a different type of workflow and can make thing work faster. You're deciding if another take is worth it but, instead of having to rewind the tape and ruin your time code, you can instantly take a look at it off the P2 card. You stupidly push record when you shouldn't and have 10 minutes of you talking to your actors. No big deal, just delete it. Not to mention the biggest bonus: no digitizing NO DIGITIZING!!!

Here's what's going on.. and maybe I should have a conversation with Steve Shovlar.. I'm currently an FX1 owner. But, last year I edited a show shot on Varicam and I had to buy a 1200 for that job. I really LOVED the quality of that footage. Awesome! At one point I cut in FX1 footage in with the varicam stuff and it actually worked good. (side note: I have some methods in FCP to convert the footage from 1080i to 720p)
Click to expand...

Personally, I don't get how anyone can be happy with an FX1 after a Varicam. No offense but I hate the FX1. Hardly any image control, doesn't even have an XLR input, and produces what looks like very sharp video. This is fine if you wanna shoot weddings but I just don't think it cuts it for much else.

After reading around on this forum for a few days.. I've almost decided to NOT get the HVX and just keep my FX1 for a while. My question above was an indirect way of asking how much a pain in the ass the shooting workflow is, and in the long run if the convienance of HDV maybe outweighs the supposed quality issue. You guys all seem fairly comitted to the HVX (which is great), but I was wondering, how is it really? Would you sacrafice "quality" for convenience?
Click to expand...

Like I said, I find P2 more convient in many respects. Why not try a FS100 harddrive. It'll now be able to give you 250 minutes of 720 24pN footage. That ain't bad.

HDV it not uncompressed 4:2:2 HD, but the image sensor is good. Debatably better than the one on the HVX. I downloaded the combi tests and it sort of scared me away from the HVX. At least made it not an easy decision.
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Don't know what tests you were looking at. The Z1/FX1 isn't any more detailed than the HVX200. With the FX1 in 60i mode, it's about the same as the HVX200 and JVC HD100 in terms of resolved detail though the HVX200 looks cleaner because of the DVCProHD codec. If you try doing 24p the FX1 actually loses quite a bit of resolution and becomes much softer than the HVX200 or HD100 since the image sensor is interlaced and creates 24p by blending the fields and thus costing you resolution. The only case in which you may get a better image from the FX1/Z1 is if you are shooting in low light since it handles gain better.

OK.. sorry for the digressions.. so I have 3 options:

1. sell my old VX2000, my FX1, and some other gear to raise enough money to buy the HVX.

2. sell everything to buy the JVC100U.

3. keep my FX1 and wait a year or two to 'upgrade.'

Things I'm concerned about.

* I want to start shooting in progressive, and actually have the option of 24p.
* I'd rather shoot in DVCPRO HD, so that I can edit natively in it an master to it.
* It would be nice to get something that works with my $1000/month deck.
* Color space matters to me, but again.. it's give and take.
* I do need to be able to shoot as much footage as I want on a given project. So for the HVX that means spending even more on big P2 cards and keeping my powerbook nearby on a shoot.
* maybe what I have is good enough.

I really would love more feedback!
Click to expand...

Based on what you want the HVX200 is gonna be your best choice. If you don't wanna hot swap P2s with a laptop just get the FS-100. Many places have deals where you can get it with the camera.
 
DavidBeier:

Are you referring to a new fs100 when you say that it can hold 250 minutes of 720 24pN footage? The current FS100 has 100gb - would that hold 250 minutes of 720 footage (that seems like a ton for 100gb's). If so, how much footage could you record in 1080 24p with a fs100-100gb's?
 
FS-100 firmware is being updated in about six or 8 weeks, and one of the new features will be the ability to store only active frames. So that means the existing FS-100 could record 250 minutes of 720/24p.
 
P2 cards do what is called native mode but only in 720p. Rather than trying to encode 24 or 30 frames a second to a 60i signal they just record the pure 24 or 30 frames. The result is that instead of getting 1 minute per gig as you normally would you get 2.5 minutes per gig in 24pN and 2 minutes in 30pN. The FS100 will be able to do pretty much the same thing (achieved a bit differently but to same affect) soon as Focus has announced that the new firmware upgrade will support native framerates. Hence, 100 gigs will give you 250 minutes.

As for 1080p, there is no native mode for that so you'll only get 100 minutes out of 100 gigs.
 
Thats great news. I don't know how i missed this announcement. Hvx200 recording to HD is becoming alot more practical.

Thanks David and Barry.
 
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Milkbone,

You said it yourself: it's all give and take. If you're happy with the FX1 and you don't NEED a new camera right now, then keep it. I'll guaranty you there'll be something better in a year or two. But if you think you can make more money with a new camera, then get it. You can always trade that in for something new in a year or two, too.

We can all give you our opinions, but in the end, it's your money and you know your situation better than anyone else.
 
And I appreciate all the feedback... it's a tough choice, which is why I got into this forum.

I like sumfun's response. Do I NEED a new camera? Well, David Beier would say 'yes' because he hates the FX1. :) But I think I'm more in a 'WANT a new camera' situation. I'm not totally happy with the FX1 and I think there's a better quality solution out there. I want progressive and the option of 24fps. (and I agree, I can always upgrade now and then again in a year or two.)

That software upgrade on the FS100 does sound good. That would probably be more than sufficient space for a day's shooting. Although I do have this pet peeve about the FS100.. why isn't it a 160 gig? For almost 2 grand or whatever.. put the biggest fricken drive in it that's out there. Come on!

DavidBeier said:
Don't know what tests you were looking at. The Z1/FX1 isn't any more detailed than the HVX200.
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Debatable...

Ok.. I've searched and searched and I can't find where I got these files.. but the folder says "Combi Test - All Cameras" and it has frame grabs of resolution charts. Now I know that a chart is nothing like shooting a real scene. But in the side by side comparison of the charts I can see that the FX1 has more detail than the HVX - both horizontal and vertical. I'm not trying to start a fight here, but that was the overall result of the shootout that provided these images. I think it might have been the HD For Indies guy, but I can't find it again now.

Again.. I'm not trying to start a quality resolution fight.. remember.. I'm here because I want to get rid of my FX1 and UPGRADE to either a HVX or JVC. But I'm not a HDV hater as an acqusition format. Sure I'd rather shoot and edit in DVCPRO HD.. totally! But it has to be cost effective... and I believe that to be better, the source image being put into that codec has to be better too. Cause either way it's compressed video. To me the color space compression is a much bigger issue with HDV than the rest of the HDV vs DVCPRO HD comparison.

And, I love the footage I've seen from the HVX. But I have some nice FX1 footage too. For me it's more of a i vs p thing.. I want to move to progressive.

And I won't debate sony's 24f.. it's total crap. And I fully expect them to blow off the community and not have 24p on the new v1. Cause they don't get it.

But on the quality issue.. I do think image sensor is important. I was bummed when I found out that the HVX image sensor is only 960x540:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=70241&page=5

I could see in those frame grabs before I even found out about the sensor size. But there's no way to have more than 540 lines of detail when that's the size of the sensor.. you can't improve detail by interpolation - except in an episode of CSI.

So I'm now leaning towards the JVC because of the 1280x720 image sensor. I've got about 2 weeks to decide...
 
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