RED versus Sony F900

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Deadzone

Active member
I work on the show Las Vegas, and the crew just recently got back from shooting stock footage there. Everything was shot on a F900 then transfered to a DVCAM for the sake of digitizing into the Avid. There were also no lighting set ups. Essentially, they shot out of a moving car of various parts of the strip. I have to say. At first I thought the footage looked like 35mm film. Only later did somebody inform me it was in fact HD video. So as far as I am concerned, if I can get that kind of performance from the Red camera, I would be set.

For the people who saw the Red presentation in person, I would like to know how they thought it compared to the F900. I would imagine because of the higher res image Red should have been better. However, as we have seen with the HVX200 versus Varicam footage there is a lot more that goes into making a picture look great besides resolution.

If the 4k image shown at IBC is better than stuff shot on the F900, then I would be encouraged. The problem I have is that no small time indie like myself will shoot in 4k uncompressed. 323MBs per second? That's only three seconds a gig. Redcode Raw might be a viable solution at 27MBs per second, but I'm not sure how good that will look. I really want the Red camera to be the revolution everybody is saying it will be. However, I have been burned before with people talking up the HVX200 only to be let down by the final picture quality.
 
If the 27MB 4K video is visually lossless or close to it then look out. That will be a heck of a way to aquire footage.
 
They showed an example, a comparison between REDCODE RAW and REDCODE with the compression at the IBC screening and both looked very good.


I was at IBC, and there you could play with the Sony F-900 and I saw the images from RED at big screen.
RED looked much more like film to me, just a feeling.

If specs are right, which I think they are, RED beats the Sony F-900 without a problem :D
 
The RED one outputs 5 times more resolution than the 900. The best comments that we received in Hollywood and at IBC is that our footage looked like film without grain. Quite a combination. The REDCODE is almost as important to our program as the sensor. We absolutely cannot tell the difference in a final 4k presentation which was shot uncompressed RAW and which was shot REDCODE RAW.
 
Graeme is and have been my distant hero for quite a while.
He helped me a lot through his answers to mine and others questions over at the cow. I dunno how to thank him.

When I saw his name on the list I started saving. I didn't know who this Jannard figure was, but Graeme Nattress is te friendliest and most knowledgeable codec guru on the net. My bet is Redcode is going to be the most mindblowing stuff ever and have a larger impact on the industri than the camera house as such.

Miss him from other fora these days, though.

No offense to you for my ignorance mr Jannard. -;)

Gunleik
 
I've seen varied results from the F900. Take a look at the australian horror film Wolf Creek. Now it's a fairly good film.. it works, but the outdoor takes looked to me like they were shot with no more than a PD150 (it had a student film feel to it at least...). Indoor it looked alright, I guess. I did some checking up and found out it was indeed shot with the F900.. Then again I have seen films where it did a reasonable good job all around.. It seems like it takes a lot of effort making it look good and you'll need a hell of a cinematographer to pull it off. That is my impression anyway..

Now I wasn't at the IBC to see the full potential of Red's images, but I was pretty impressed just watching the DV screeners on the net. Looking forward to more test footage from these gentlemen. Hopefully some shots outside in daylight.

There's already lot's of camera's out there that will knock the F900 out of its socks, while Red is aiming for even higher quality than the best. And they've come so far in just 8 months! I think these guys have seen enough footage in their days to distinguish visually lossless from something that's not. And if they say the Redcode is visually lossless, it's most likely: visually lossless.

The F900 wouldn't even dare to show up at a challenge against RED!!!!
 
i agree the 900 does have a sort of film look when viewd on a 14-25" monitor. larger and projected you'll start to see the video'ness of it ...
and of course when you split the screen sony one side and 35m other - then it's very easy to see the difference ...
IMO sony cinealta vs panasonic varicam - the varicam is more film like ...
 
Having

Having

JUst shot with both the 900 and Varicam, I far prefer the picture out of the varicam, even at 720P, it looks far nicier than the sony picture. So give it a close look if you get a chance, it is also cheaper to rent.

]I have been reading all the post since the RED forum has come into being (and reading this forum right from earlyDVX100 days), and now I am going to join in the chorus of Thanks and support for what Jim is doing. You have totally understood where the market is going and are developing a revolutionary product which will allow all the "long tailers" the chance to produce as high a quality picture as anyone else, your camera will level the playing field. A huge thanks for that and I hope you reep the financial rewards you deserve.

Of course the camera alone won't make good TV/film that's still in the hands of the writers/directors/scenics etc etc, but I hope we will hear the end of the protectionist nonesense we have heard from broadcasters and others about this and that not being "broadcast quality" (the HvX being a good example of a camera that produces very nice pictures that are "not good enough" for some broadcasters).

I also find it interesting that the more traditional film people are having a harder time accepting this camera than others and the RED team have gravitated to places like this to find a very willing and open support group with bright dynamic ideas. This is certainly the right place to be, this type of technology and the users of it will be the ones in demand.

It certainly will be an interesting world in a year or two from now, I am absolutely loving what RED will do to the established companies. In the same way Itunes came from nowhere to dominate music sales I hope RED can do the same in the Camera world.

I was responsible for converting a national broadcaster from Small Sony Cameras to Panasonics (not a small change), I intend to do the same with RED.

Best of luck

FB
 
Thanks Gunleik.

I think the visual aesthetic we're aiming for at RED is best described by Jim above - the tonal richness and dynamic range of film, but with the stability and lack of grain of video, and much lower noise than traditional video. I think it looks like chocolate.

Graeme
 
Thanks for the responses guys. The first Red images I saw were coming from a DV camera shooting a 1080 HD screen. From that it was difficult to tell how good Red really was. But from what you guys are saying, the Red completely destroys the F900 which is wonderful news. I have been dreaming of shooting film quality video for the last fifteen years. I couldn't afford the hundred thousand price tags of the other cameras plus lens. Red is the new hope, Thanks Jim, you've given me that.
 
"find it interesting that the more traditional film people are having a harder time accepting this camera than others "

i think they'll do much better when RED has design and spec's locked down .... IMO they just can't handle the price ( too low to be true - perhaps RED should have a 60K price for them !! ) ...
since IBC i see that some have put in reservations !!
 
Jannard said:
The RED one outputs 5 times more resolution than the 900. The best comments that we received in Hollywood and at IBC is that our footage looked like film without grain. Quite a combination. The REDCODE is almost as important to our program as the sensor. We absolutely cannot tell the difference in a final 4k presentation which was shot uncompressed RAW and which was shot REDCODE RAW.
Click to expand...
When somebody compare the beautiful sharpness of a RED picture with the sharpness of HD, then its like I would compare an old Leica or Zeiss lens with one of the first let's say NIKONs. Leica and Zeiss hasn't to cheat because they knew (and they know)how to build first class lenses, NIKON had to push the contrast of the lens in a way that everybody thought: wow, how sharp is it. RED has not to cheat because of the resolution, the incredible tonal range and the size of the sensor. Thats what all the videoguys and HD-gurus will never understand because few of them ever shot on 35mm and really felt what filmlook means.
 
Jannard said:
The RED one outputs 5 times more resolution than the 900. The best comments that we received in Hollywood and at IBC is that our footage looked like film without grain. Quite a combination. The REDCODE is almost as important to our program as the sensor. We absolutely cannot tell the difference in a final 4k presentation which was shot uncompressed RAW and which was shot REDCODE RAW.
Click to expand...

Have you done any film-outs yet? Perhaps it is too early at this juncture.... just curious. An answer print from the REDCODE, I would think that would be just as important. Please keep me informed if you can regarding this.

That is absolutely awesome, though, that REDCODE = uncompressed @ 4K out. That is truly amazing, and I can't wait to see a presentation!
 
Kjetil Haugen said:
I've seen varied results from the F900. Take a look at the australian horror film Wolf Creek. Now it's a fairly good film.. it works, but the outdoor takes looked to me like they were shot with no more than a PD150 (it had a student film feel to it at least...). Indoor it looked alright, I guess. I did some checking up and found out it was indeed shot with the F900..
Click to expand...

Wolf Creek came from my home state. It looks fab in the indoor and night time scenes, but agree it falls down pretty badly in the bright sun. Was the aussie sun too harsh? Was it the post processing choices? Not sure, but it did keep me skeptical of HD for a while.
 
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Does anyone know what Scott Billups thinks of all this? I bought his Digital movie making book a few years back and he seemed to be pretty up on it all. He was salivating over the Viper Filmstream camera.

I just checked his Pixelmonger site though and he's still got wood for Viper.
 
ZaneIsNumber1 said:
Wolf Creek came from my home town. It looks fab in the indoor and night time scenes, but agree it falls down pretty badly in the bright sun. Was the aussie sun too harsh? Was is poor post processing choices? Not sure, but it did keep me skeptical of HD for a while.
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I know that their schedule (wolf creek) from day to day were really tight because of budget strains, so they didn't wait for the weather to change or anything. Some of the rainy scenes weren't scripted. They sort of adapted the script to whatever the weather called for, right on the spot. So this could explain some of the outdoor shots. They didn't have time to plan anything. Just run and shoot..

As far as the australian sunlight goes.. I studied for two years over there in Perth, shooting some short films mainly on a PD150. And a couple of ND's cleared that sky right up, so there'e no reason why the F900 shouldn't perform. I miss Australia by the way..

But that's the thing with digital cameras these days. No matter how much we try to make it look like film, the camera is working against us because it's trying to produce something it's not. It's a videocamera. A 3 chip camera with all the buttons and what not we're used to see in any digital camera. Red on the other hand is not trying to be a video camera. It's chip is the size of a super 35mm frame, and put a Cooke lens on that thing there's nothing video about it anymore.. Just look at the difference between the F900 and the Genesis. Genesis has a single 35mm sized chip, and it looks tons better. The Red team knows this so their not mocking around with traditional video camera technology (thank god!).
 
perhaps Scott spoke up a little too soon when the Viper came out ..
the site hasn't been updated since ..

"IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT"
" THIS IS THE CAMERA THAT KILLED FILM AQUSITION "

based on his Viper statements .. he may hold off till after RED camera is released ?
 
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