handing over footage to a client
- Thread starter deadmike
- Start date
Lowkus
Active member
donatello said:
The thing that's wrong with making money is that it can cause a disparity of wealth and subsequent class unrest. For historical reference, check out the French Revolution.
Regarding whether Red is charging really good prices... think of it like this. If the only baker in town sells a loaf of bread for $20,000, then another baker comes along and sets up shop and sells a loaf for only $5,000, are you going to get excited? Sure. Are you getting finacially screwed? Sure. Bread doesn't cost that much to make. Neither do a lot of the accessories that are being sold. So when Red comes along and says "here's a lens for $5k", we can get excited that it's cheaper than prior offers, but it would be sticking your head in the ground to think that it actually costs a company anywhere near $5k in materials and labor to make that lens.
Price-gouging is rampant in the AV industry. People pay the high prices because there isn't enough competition in the industry to provide alternatives. Your average consumer can't just start up a company to compete against the already established businesses... it's too expensive. Wealthy people have the financial means to overthrow that scenario, but until they do, the less-fortunate are forced to put up with whatever options are made available to them by the wealthy upper-class. If the cheapest option available still costs a lot of money (relative to development costs), then the consumer that buys it will have lost a larger amount of money than was potentially necessary. If the consumer doesn't buy the equipment, they lose the opportunities they could otherwise have had by owning the equipment. So, either way, items priced high above their development costs will cause the consumer to lose out on something.
I'm not arguing that people and businesses stop charging money for their services, or whatever it is they sell. I'm arguing that a fair price be charged - one that doesn't only act on capitalist motivations, but also moral and ethical motivations, and on the benefit of the whole of mankind over the individual. For instance, most hospitals in the U.S. charge thousands of dollars for one night's stay, not including any medical procedures. Patients that need medical attention don't have any options for care; does that make it right for the hospitals to take advantage of what the market will bare? I don't think so. If that money went back into the hospitals, maybe it would be more palettable, but that money goes into the pockets of the rich, which only makes the scenario worse. Same thing with a lot of other "services"... the people operating them are more concerned about making the money than doing the kind, compassionate, humanitarian thing. They take far more out of the system than they put into it, and that means the working class has to work even harder to make up for that imbalance.
Jannard
Red Leader
You are missing only one piece? Companies need to make money (profit) to 1. Insure that the checks to their employees don't bounce and that there is some security for their employees to stay with the same company and not get cast to the street... and 2. Pay for development, marketing and rent (among other things). How much profit to make... that is the question. Charge too much and get undercut. Charge too little and go out of business. And this all assumes that you are building a product that can sell at all. Then throw in the advantage of volume production. And that assumes that there really will be volume at the prices you charge. Ah... the business aspect. It is not quite as simple as charitable thinking. Somewhere is the balance. Those that figure it our are few. And not many are appreciated when then do.
Jim
Jim
Lowkus
Active member
Don't think of Apple Corp as the maker of FCP. The maker of FCP (if you ignore FCP's Macromedia origins) is a computing group within Apple. That group's survival, their paychecks, are dependent on the survival and sales performance of FCP in the marketplace... if FCP stops making the sales, the group gets shut down.town said:
if bread was 20k and a new shop opened up selling at 5k - i'd buy it ..
Please please please !! if you think RED is over charging ( like your bread example ) then how about YOU making one for less - you make one for 5k i'll buy it ... if one thinks there is $$ to be made ( or you just want to do it for mankind or just to offer a fair price) then take that idea and go out -find investors , or get $$ from family & friends and do something about it and/or just make people aware of it all ...
now popcorn at the movie theaters .. Price-gouging? .. i have friend who owns some theaters and the popcorn is how they stay in business ...
so what do you think a "fair" price for RED should be ?
wealth distribution and health care that's another topic ..
in general: IMO money is easy to come by ... keeping it is the hard part ..
Please please please !! if you think RED is over charging ( like your bread example ) then how about YOU making one for less - you make one for 5k i'll buy it ... if one thinks there is $$ to be made ( or you just want to do it for mankind or just to offer a fair price) then take that idea and go out -find investors , or get $$ from family & friends and do something about it and/or just make people aware of it all ...
now popcorn at the movie theaters .. Price-gouging? .. i have friend who owns some theaters and the popcorn is how they stay in business ...
so what do you think a "fair" price for RED should be ?
wealth distribution and health care that's another topic ..
in general: IMO money is easy to come by ... keeping it is the hard part ..
Lowkus
Active member
Also, I'm not trying to suggest that the Red equipment and accessories are overpriced... I haven't a clue what your actual development costs are. It's just that if a modern manufacturing process is used, and the materials used to build the item are readily available, then the cost to create the item should potentially be very low. Maybe I'm underestimating the precision you are expecting from your lenses, or maybe I'm underestimating the expenses involved in your lens design efforts. I just know that when I hear a $5k price for something made of glass and metal, it makes me think something's off kilter.Lowkus said:
Jannard
Red Leader
Hypothetically, If we sold 1,000,000 lenses, you would be correct. But if we sell 1000 (more reasonable number) then you are NOT correct.
Imagine you invest 2,000,000 in development of something. And you can only sell 1000 units. You add $2000 to the fixed cost of the product before you have your absolute cost. Get my point? Now if you can sell 1,000,000 units, you only add $2 to your fixed cost. Knowing your market goes a long way to determining the actual selling price and whether or not you can make payroll.
Business and charity are two different topics. If you want equity for all, Cuba is a great place. No matter what you make the government takes it all and spreads it around. But then who is motivated to risk any money when you can't make any? Actually, who would have any money to risk?
Jim
Imagine you invest 2,000,000 in development of something. And you can only sell 1000 units. You add $2000 to the fixed cost of the product before you have your absolute cost. Get my point? Now if you can sell 1,000,000 units, you only add $2 to your fixed cost. Knowing your market goes a long way to determining the actual selling price and whether or not you can make payroll.
Business and charity are two different topics. If you want equity for all, Cuba is a great place. No matter what you make the government takes it all and spreads it around. But then who is motivated to risk any money when you can't make any? Actually, who would have any money to risk?
Jim
Another French Revolution ?. Bare breasted women running through the streets
It's a business. Make a decent profit. Make better products. Make more profit. Those who've invested in the camera reap the rewards. That's the way it's supposed to work.
:beer:
RED# wish I was higher
ZaneIsNumber1
Well-known member
I know I get shocked looks when I talk about the cost of cine lenses, especially from people used to fixed lens cameras who expect lenses to be bundled.
The price of the lenses Red has proposed is good comparitively. I don't know whether is costs $50 to build a 300mm prime, or it whether is costs almost $5G with a small mark up.
If anyone could post a link to good info on lens engineering costs, that would be great.
The price of the lenses Red has proposed is good comparitively. I don't know whether is costs $50 to build a 300mm prime, or it whether is costs almost $5G with a small mark up.
If anyone could post a link to good info on lens engineering costs, that would be great.
Last edited:
Greg Lowry
Carbonite Member
I'm nominating Jim for the Most Patient Mogul Award.
ZaneIsNumber1
Well-known member
Good idea. He answered most of my questions while I typed my previous post.Greg Lowry said:
Thanks Jim
Lowkus
Active member
Thought about making my own lenses... seriously, seriously thought about it. Actually, I also thought about making a camcorder similar to the RedOne, prior to ever finding out about the RedOne. I just didn't have the knowledge or time to put the whole thing together, and I wasn't about to ask for investors without fully understanding what I was getting into. I went as far as reading up on glass making and electronics design. Eventually gave up on the idea when I saw Red was coming out. I'm still researching electronics for other projects, but I'm not even going to try to compete with established lens companies at this point. Still lenses are adequate for my current needs, and eventually some of the Red lenses may circulate on the used market.donatello said:
Honestly, fair price for RedOne is what they're currently asking. The cost for materials is less than what most people realize, especially if Red is cutting their own image sensors. But, they've probably spent a ton on R&D so they'll need to make that money back somehow. Same deal for their accessories... they'll need a little profit to recoup their R&D expenses on that stuff too. But at some point I'd expect them to have fully recouped their money and drop prices to lower levels. Then again, they'll be competing with the Asian oligopoly within a couple years, so they'll eventually have to drop prices as a result of regular market competition regardless of whether they've recouped their R&D.
"Thought about making my own lenses... seriously, seriously thought about it. Actually, I also thought about making a camcorder similar to the RedOne"
keep thinking !!! reseaching !! keep the idea's rolling around ... could be a day ,week, year ? when you have something you feel really strong then RUN with it !!!
keep thinking !!! reseaching !! keep the idea's rolling around ... could be a day ,week, year ? when you have something you feel really strong then RUN with it !!!
Lowkus
Active member
Jannard said:
I don't. No idea whatsoever. All I know is that you're using high-quality materials and have been through a battery of design revisions, and that good workmanship shows in the final price. And I wouldn't want you to skimp on any of that. I've always thought that you'll sell millions of these cameras, along with millions of the accessories, yet I've also heard that there aren't millions of people in need of ultra-high-quality video gear. So, I'm not sure what kind of bulk manufacturing discounts you'll have at your disposal, or how much you'll ask in order to recoup your costs... I do the worst-case scenario and figure you'll be paying full price for your materials and labor. So your prices could be high or low, and no matter what the prices they will probably be justified, and potentially even excellent and cheap in comparison to anything else... but the little psychic portion of my brain is telling me that the accessories will be beyond my own financial utilities... not so much a slam on your prices as on the light weight of my own wallet.
Sorry man no.. there is only one aspect of that that is counted as development.. and guess which one it is? I'll give you a hint.. it has the word development in it.Lowkus said:
Rent and Paying the the non engineers that open the doors every morning is not development costs.
The a very large percentage of the CDB (cost of doing business) goes to non development expenses.
Greg Lowry said:
I seriously should change his usergroup name to this lol..