RED workflow (how we prepared the Red Footage for IBC)

Chris Kenny said:
Well, keep in mind, $45K isn't the final price for SCRATCH either, unless you've already got a multi-terabyte RAID that can comfortably do over 300 MB/s and a $10K Windows workstation.
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that $45K is the price for a turnkey system including storage and hardware, even the control surface. But I'll leave it to Lucas to set that straight.

But anyway, as much as I dig Scratch, I think it is definitely worth pointing out that Red's workflow is quite compatible with very inexpensive, but nevertheless high quality, post solutions. The only trade off will be the lack of realtime performance, which is totally acceptable to many people. I could envision grading a Red-shot film in realtime in Premeire Pro in SD and then match-mastering the HD in After Effects at 16-bit, for example.

-Stu
 
ProLost said:
I was under the impression that $45K is the price for a turnkey system including storage and hardware, even the control surface. But I'll leave it to Lucas to set that straight.
Click to expand...

Hmm. Doing a few more searches, now I'm not so sure. The software by itself might only be $35K. But just $10K more for the workstation and particularly the RAID doesn't seem like enough for the $45K to include everything, unless that's some kind of package deal with the software discounted. Why is it always so hard to find prices for high-end software?

Anyway, I don't think this changes my point much.

ProLost said:
But anyway, as much as I dig Scratch, I think it is definitely worth pointing out that Red's workflow is quite compatible with very inexpensive, but nevertheless high quality, post solutions. The only trade off will be the lack of realtime performance, which is totally acceptable to many people. I could envision grading a Red-shot film in realtime in Premeire Pro in SD and then match-mastering the HD in After Effects at 16-bit, for example.
Click to expand...

From what Graeme is saying in other threads, it looks like online 2K in various NLEs might actually be possible. We won't know, really, until RED talks more about the non-RAW variants of REDCODE.
 
It already is possible.. i have been doing it by myself for the last month. 2k in a format (be it DPX sequences, codec quicktimes) is not that far above 1080p.. the capability in non restrictive editors is available (IE Sony Vegas). AE works wonders. Scratch does 2k very well as a color timing application, as it does it in realtime, with uncompressed 2k, and export. But for actual 2k compressed edits, the solutions are already there.

The real trick of the poney is fiber Raid arrays.. but a Good Xserve or Gspeed from G tech takes you there.
 
Last edited:
Why is scratch becoming so popular these days? From everything I've read/seen it's one of the less advanced color grading stations out there... I'd personally much prefer a Nucoda Film Master station if I had the choice! Am I missing something here?
 
Jarred Land said:
It already is possible.. i have been doing it by myself for the last month. 2k in a format (be it DPX sequences, codec quicktimes) is not that far above 1080p.
Click to expand...

Well, you can certainly do it uncompressed, if you have an array that can handle it. There doesn't seem to be a good codec choice for folks without a pretty serious RAID, though. Right now, the lower-bandwith codec options like JPEG2000 use too much CPU power for real-time playback at 2K.

What would be ideal is a codec with bandwidth requirements somewhere between 20-40 MB/s, that could do playback of 10-bit 4:4:4 2K at 24 fps in QuickTime-based apps on commonly deployed editing hardware (most dual G5s, say, or at least Mac Pros). Maybe the non-RAW REDCODE is that codec (we don't know yet), or maybe the whole thing isn't really technically feasible (I'm not qualified to say).
 
Chris Kenny said:
(And hopefully if some of the indies make good use of their REDs, they'll have the budget for SCRATCH themselves in a couple of years.)
Click to expand...

Very relevent point indeed!
 
Shaw said:
Why is scratch becoming so popular these days? From everything I've read/seen it's one of the less advanced color grading stations out there... I'd personally much prefer a Nucoda Film Master station if I had the choice! Am I missing something here?
Click to expand...
Im not sure its fair to call SCRATCH one of the "less advanced" systems out there.

Infact SCRATCH is one of the *most* advanced DI tools of the "new breed" of affordable, hardware independent DI solutions. This includes Final Touch, and Speed Grade, its two biggest competitors.

The Nucoda is nice, but Lustre is nice too.... both are turnkey systems and some serious cash.

SCRATCH isnt in the DV shooters budget but it *is* the indie version of color correction. Scratch is in a couple big shops but its primary client are smaller post houses. It was never intended for bob the wedding videographer.

P.S. I have zero affiliation with SCRATCH.
 
Chris Kenny said:
Well, you can certainly do it uncompressed, if you have an array that can handle it. There doesn't seem to be a good codec choice for folks without a pretty serious RAID, though. Right now, the lower-bandwith codec options like JPEG2000 use too much CPU power for real-time playback at 2K.
Click to expand...

How are you going to shoot 2k (or even 4k) when you don't have the budget for a decent RAID? Some of these discussions are getting really confused.

A minimal RED digital cinema setup looks to be 30k. (camerabody, zoom lens, and two recording media). At this point you don't even have a decent on-set monitor.

This is a huge shift in pricepoint from CineAlta, Viper etc. But a full 2k workflow requires a substantial investment. Not necessarily in Scratch, but if you want any real-time capabilities, you'll end up with a combined investment in the same direction as what Scratch costs.

Of course you can always work around it, compress to offline proxies, edit and then do an online in After Effects or Combustion. It's a bit of a hassle, but probably worth it. I'm just not sure if I'd want to do anything over 10 minutes long that way. But doing a 2k DI in After Effects works. Just requires some patience. And you'll still want a RAID.

Bar3nd
 
I agree with Barend. Lets not get the cart in front of the horse just yet LOL.

RED will help revolutionize filmmaking....but this craft will never be cheap, and never easy, for most.
 
Redcode

Redcode

Was REDCODE used at all for the footage for IBC? What exactly is REDCODE anyways? How is it different from TIFFS used for IBC? I don't know much, so excuse me if those are dumb questions.
 
Shaw said:
Why is scratch becoming so popular these days? From everything I've read/seen it's one of the less advanced color grading stations out there... I'd personally much prefer a Nucoda Film Master station if I had the choice! Am I missing something here?
Click to expand...

SCRATCH is becoming so popular these days because it's a really powerful system at a very affordable price. That's an easy answer. It also does some things in terms of conform and dailies workflow that no other system can do. None.

I deal with the competition (Nucoda, Autodesk, etc...) all the time and am pretty knowledgeable about all the systems out there. So, instead of vague comments, get into specifics. Why do you think it's less advanced? Why is Nucoda more advanced? Why would you spend more than 3 times the price of a SCRATCH system for a FilmMaster system? What justifies that?

I can handle it... tell me why.
 
Regarding all the various posts about pricing --

Bottom line - SCRATCH is a modular and configurable software package. List prices range from $5K to $60K, depending on what options you include with the software. For the record - I have never sold the software at the $60K price. It's sort of like getting a car with ALL the options. Nobody ever does that... you just don't need it.

For a realtime 2K color correction SCRATCH with the appropriate hardware and call it about 9TB of RAID5 storage, and with a color correction panel - most people end up spending anywhere from $60 - $100K for turnkey systems.

Now before anybody shrieks in horror - take a REAL look at the other price structures. Do a serious price comparison of that versus any other system that can do realtime uncompressed 2K color correction and realtime 2K editorial/playback. You'll find that's at the very low end.

I'm proud of the fact that I have several customers who are owner/operators. These are 1-, 2-, or 3-man shops who have put their money where their mouth is. They are out there, doing real, indie work at 2K and beyond - and being successful. I have 1 customer who did the classic "load up a bunch of credit cards and get it going." I asked him if he really wanted to do that, and he said, "hell yes." That was 18 months ago. He now has 5 employees and is on his 3rd feature film.

This industry is not for the faint of heart! :) Innovation and advancement always means investment. We just allow people to take that step without having to sell their souls or mortgage their houses.

Lucas
 
Lucas, thanks for the info on SCRATCH; I hadn't heard of it before this thread but it certainly sounds interesting for the smaller production houses (of which I'd like to be one eventually). I only just learned about colour correction after attending an Autodesk seminar on the Lustre system but it was a pretty eye opening experience (so was the price!!). Suffice to say I am only playing with the standard colour correction tools in After Effects right now but I can see that once Red arrives in my hands I'll probably try to get a full end-to-end mini studio set up to hire out both the camera and do the post workflow part as well for more money. Your little anecdote certainly has me thinking, so thanks!
 
Barend Onneweer said:
How are you going to shoot 2k (or even 4k) when you don't have the budget for a decent RAID? Some of these discussions are getting really confused.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. As I pointed out in my earlier post, these costs stack. Everyone who can afford a RED can afford an 8 TB, 300 MB/s RAID... but the question is, can they afford both? Some can, some can't.

Barend Onneweer said:
Of course you can always work around it, compress to offline proxies, edit and then do an online in After Effects or Combustion. It's a bit of a hassle, but probably worth it. I'm just not sure if I'd want to do anything over 10 minutes long that way. But doing a 2k DI in After Effects works. Just requires some patience. And you'll still want a RAID.
Click to expand...

Yes, naturally, but there are RAIDs and then there are RAIDs. If RED can deliver a codec that does real-time playback of 10-bit 4:4:4 2K at 20-40 MB/s, you can do online 2K editing for a feature film with 2 TB worth of disks (under $1500 if you don't need RAID 5), which will hold 14 hours of footage at 40 MB/s. If it turns out you can't work with 2K in common apps without using something closer to uncompressed video, costs go up significantly even if you switch to an offline workflow. (Obviously these are two extremes, and there are intermediate possibilities).
 
TheThe said:
I am praying that Final Touch works great with this, as it's the only "accessible" software solution currently available. I am waiting for them to make it compatible with the new Mac Pro's...

But anyway, I think these are tremendously exciting times. The race is now oficially on to make 4K gear accessible... I know in a year from now Apple/Red/Blackmagic/Silicon Color will all make it possible for me to own a complete 4K workflow.
Click to expand...


Well maybe a compressed 4k workflow, since Black Magic just got 2k DPX support going.

Apple needs more than just to make Final Cut Pro handle 4k files, it needs robust asset management. Especially if you plan to work with proxies.

Final Touch is GPU based and not many cards have been able to do 4k in the past. Hopefully they will use both GPU and CPU and go unlimited resolution.

You can always use After Effects for your indie color grading needs. It has been done before, it would be much more time consuming, but indies have more time than money.
 
I have a very very important question for you, Luki:

You said: "one of Jannard's 959s..." Hold on a minute. He doesn´t even have one, but several 959s? :-OOOOO
 
Hey Lucas

Hey Lucas

Lucas, good to hear from you on these boards. I met you briefly a few months back at the Santa Fe Workshop where you gave a little demo on Scratch. Very cool product indeed.

Lucas is a really great guy too, nice to have him here.

I would die to have a realtime 2k Scratch setup with my new red camera. Must...find...way....
 
Last edited:
Great to see things are moving along nicely. I still can't fathom 4K acquisition at such a paltry bit rate, even if it is wavelet based. Kudos Graeme!
 
Last edited:
Opcode said:
Lucas, good to hear from you on these boards. I met you briefly a few months back at the Santa Fe Workshop where you gave a little demo on Scratch. Very cool product indeed.

Lucas is a really great guy too, nice to have him here.

I would die to have a realtime 2k Scratch setup with my new red camera. Must...find...way....
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words. :)

Glad you liked the Santa Fe presentation...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top