When will owning an HVX be more practical?

philnerd said:
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see your total budget anywhere. Anyway, the HVX is my personal favorite "affordable" HD product by a good margin. But, it is NOT a $5500 ready-to-go HD cam. Its a $5500 HD head and you are right to look into the expenses associated with capture and storage.

You could add a FireStore for around $1700-1800 and that would put your package at just under 7.5K and you don't need to carry a deck or laptop with you.

IF you own a good laptop already, consider an HVX with one 4Gig card for 6K and offload onto the laptop and/or capture directly to the laptop with something like the forthcoming DVCRACK (more $$ though).


Alternatively, the Canon XH A1 is coming out around Oct/Nov for $3999 and should be a fantastic HDV tape based camera. If you don't mind HDV, then its 24F recording mode and extensive manual controls might well suit your purposes. Its not DVCPROHD, but it is around half the money of a typical entry level HVX rig and should enjoy a decent resale value if you decide to move up to an HVX later.

www.philipwilliams.com
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In some ways I'm more concerned with covenience over price. I'm so used to the quickness and simplicity of tape, that carrying around a deck or drive just seems like a pain.

Again, the P2 technology is great and if the cards held more footage and were cheeper, I'd have no problem. If I'm on the field by myself, I'm not gonna be able to deal with offloading and such. I'd like to have one or two cards that will last me the day.

Of course, then I'd still have to deal with dumping all that footage onto a bigger drive so I can use the cards again. Plus, if I'm dealing with a client who wants the footage right away after the shoot, I'll have no choice but to record onto mini DV. That's why a DVCPRO HD tape would be great.
 
filmamigo said:
I've been put off the HVX200 because the broadcasters (read: Discovery Channel) are lumping it in with HDV. They won't accept it (unless it's a small percentage of the show, with special permission.) That removes some of the appeal of shooting DVCPRO HD onto P2 cards. Now I am thinking, for really personal/independent work, that the new Canon XH A1 might make more sense.
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What is it about the HVX's footage that they don't like?
 
DC said:
Just burn 4GB P2 Cards onto DVD-R's and you've got your "tape" archive.
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That's true.

I'll still have the issue with the low storage P2 cards. It's not like I'm gonna buy a stack of them to carry around on a shoot. And I don't plan on having a laptop with me everywhere I go.
 
DavidBeier said:
I thought that's what we were all doing? My current project I've already got 12 DVDs worth of P2s MXFs and it's a hell of a lot easier to manage and transport than a bunch of HDV tapes.

Anyway, the HVX200 doesn't do HDV because it would require Pansonic writing an entirly new codec since DVCProHD is 100mbs and HDV is only 25mbs. And yes, I wish the price would come down too but hopefully it will pave the way for a better way of working. Seriously, once you get used to P2 it's very hard to go back to tape.
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I believe it.

I just can't see myself paying so much for so litlle. I know the prices will drop and the storage will increase. I just wish I knew when.
 
filmamigo said:
I've been put off the HVX200 because the broadcasters (read: Discovery Channel) are lumping it in with HDV. They won't accept it (unless it's a small percentage of the show, with special permission.) That removes some of the appeal of shooting DVCPRO HD onto P2 cards. Now I am thinking, for really personal/independent work, that the new Canon XH A1 might make more sense.
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If you really had a project for Discovery you would probably have a budget and could hire out film or HDCAM. Shooting spec for Discovery is at best an exercise in futility. They want original film and tape sources they can own for stock footage uses later. Did you know when they "buy" a show they own it, copyright and original footage. I am sure it would be everyones desire on this forum to shoot a high end broadcast piece. So worrying about Discovery Channel not accepting the HVX is like saying my Honda Accord cannot race in the Indy 500. I would rent both the HVX and the Canon and test them through an editing workflow before you make a decision.
 
alexdias said:
Abaddon I feel your pain.

For a long time I was struggling with many of the same concerns, but at the end if you consider your serious options (excluding HDV, of course...) like XDCAM, HDX (when available) and other even bigger ‘dogs’, the HVX is very practical $$$ and it delivers similar quality footage.

As you see from these posts people and finding creative and practical ways to deal with the limitations and getting shooting in real life situations all over.

Anyway, take a long breath and go for what you feel is the better $/practical/quality option.
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Honestly, I think I'll just wait it out. I'd rather wait a bit until the P2 storage increases and the price decreases.
 
I think I read somewhere that recording onto an FS-100 won't capture certain qualities of footage from the HVX. A problem with the firewire or something?
 
the camera will only send out certain types of footage via firewire in realtime. The cinestore coming out is supposed to plug into the P2 slots, so you can send any kind of footage to that, but I believe the firestore will only work with 720p at 30fps (please don't quote me on this) and 24p but not pN.
 
mrWr0ng said:
the camera will only send out certain types of footage via firewire in realtime. The cinestore coming out is supposed to plug into the P2 slots, so you can send any kind of footage to that, but I believe the firestore will only work with 720p at 30fps (please don't quote me on this) and 24p but not pN.
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Yeah, so that's kinda lame.

If I'm gonna get a camera like this, I'll wanna use it to its full potential.
 
filmamigo said:
I've been put off the HVX200 because the broadcasters (read: Discovery Channel) are lumping it in with HDV. They won't accept it (unless it's a small percentage of the show, with special permission.) That removes some of the appeal of shooting DVCPRO HD onto P2 cards. Now I am thinking, for really personal/independent work, that the new Canon XH A1 might make more sense.
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If you are good with the camera, have a very nice documentary or content and present it on a master dvcpro HD tape (take your quicktime or MXF master to a facility that will allow you to dump the master to either dvcpro hd tape or dvcpro 50 tape), there's NO WAY Discovery would know it was shot with the HVX. The trick is in how you use the HVX- know its strenghts and limitations! If you ad an M2 to the HVX, have some lighting and shoot interviews, it will look 100 times better than digibeta footage in SD. It could even beat Varicam, if PROPERLY set up.
 
I agree. But to a HDCAM tape it will be a better standard, isn't it?

However, the colorimeter is very different than the Sony. Pana trade mark.
 
Guys, it's not about source or even deliverables. The DCI P2 issue revolves around archiving. Discovery Channel, in commissioned productions, retains the source masters.

P2 to HDD or DVD is not an acceptable archival format.

A bit from our copy of the DCI PMD...

"'SD formats DCI currently supports (as of Feb 2006)

Sony DigiBeta
Sony BetaSP
Sony MPEG IMX 50mb
Sony MPEG IMX 50mb XDCam
Panasonic DVCPro 50 (tape)
Panasonic DVCPro 50 (P2)

HD

Sony HDCam
Sony HDCam SR
Panasonic DVCProHD 100 (HD "with HDV restrictions")
Panasonic HD-D5 (Film Transfers)
Sony XDCamHD (at 35mbps only)

Film

S16mm
35mm
70mm (IMAX inclusive)

So, DCI effectively states that, "...Material not acquired in one of the acceptable formats must be approved by the Production Manager prior to the commencement of production."

Further, DCI for HD Deliverable Standard requires, "...that deliverable format shall be Sony HD Cam 1080i / 59.94, Stereo audio on channels 1 & 2, Dolby 5.1 mix (when available) expressed as Dolby E on channels 3 & 4.

Where facilities exist, the HD master must be accompanied by a closed captioned Betacam SX standard definition down converted dub. This standard definition dub shall contain a 16:9 letterboxed image obtained from the HD master. The program content shall be exactly the same on both versions of the master and the times codes shall match exactly. Audio shall also match for any Lt/Rt or Lo/Ro content but no Dolby E is necessary. Closed captioning shall be on line 21.


Discovery HD requires programs to be mastered in the 1080i 59.54 signal standard.

Programs may be acquired in the 720P 59.94 signal standard and mastered in 1080i 59.94 for delivery only with prior approval.

Programs may be acquired and delivered in 1080 psf 23.98 or 25, or 1080i 50 only with prior permission from Discovery HD."

On HDV, "...1080 line HDV footage may be used in HD programs with the following restrictions:
    • Program may not contain any more than 15% HDV footage.
    • The combined percentage of HDV and SD upconverted footage is not to exceed 30%.
    • Producers wishing to use HDV must submit an approved post production path outlining their handling of the footage in the editing process."
Regarding 720p, "...720P material is acceptable, only with a pre-approved post production path and budget. Delivered Master must be at 1080 resolution. Footage may not be converted from 1080i to 720P for post and converted back to 1080i for mastering. We cannot allow multiple resolution changes on material. If you have an editorial need to use mixed resolutions, please discuss this with us.'"

This is DCI's stance on the HVX as of this summer. They really, really reaaaalllly like XDCam. That is all I have to say about that.

:love4:

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Emanuel said:
I agree. But to a HDCAM tape it will be a better standard, isn't it?

However, the colorimeter is very different than the Sony. Pana trade mark.
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Indeed. When I went to Hong-Kong with my P2 master, they did do a dub to HDCAM tape and insisted on that as the standard for HD. However, I don't know if you're losing anything if you go away from the native compression format. If you go MXF dvcpro HD to tape dvcpro hd you don't lose anything. I don't know if going from a dvcpro HD timeline by sdi to a HDCAM deck would change the image. I specifically ordered a master dvcpro HD tape of my project, tough.

EDIT- Overlandfilms, this is still not a problem, I presume. Just dump all p2 mxf footage trough firewire to the dvcprohd recorder, and - presto- Full show done on DVCPRO HD TAPE, not HVX :)
 
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Abaddon said:
In some ways I'm more concerned with covenience over price. I'm so used to the quickness and simplicity of tape, that carrying around a deck or drive just seems like a pain.
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Personally, I find capturing footage to be even more of a pain. Not only do I have to shell out the cash for a deck but I have to sit there and watch as my already digital tape is digitized into the computer. Personally, just being able to dump the cards makes life a lot easier.

And the FS-100 is a fine solution. You can still do everything you can with P2s, you'll just can't get as much per gig (but 100 minutes is still nothing to slouch at). If you are recording 1080p, it'll be no different at all. I'd still rather get a Firestore if I was working with the HDV cameras since it's cheaper then getting a deck.
 
I was also thinking about waiting for the Cineporter to be released, but I'm wondering if the extra weight would be a problem. It's not like the camera can rest on my shoulder more comfortably.
 
yeah, it's heavier, but the FS-100 isn't too bad and is availible now. Considering the HVX200 is lighter than a HD100 or XLH1, it's not a big deal. Honestly, I guess if you just do freelance work and sell your footage untouched to stations then perhaps P2s are a pain (since they have the capturing decks), but if you're going to handle your footage in any way it's really not as big of a pricing issue as it's made out to be.
 
DavidBeier said:
yeah, it's heavier, but the FS-100 isn't too bad and is availible now. Considering the HVX200 is lighter than a HD100 or XLH1, it's not a big deal. Honestly, I guess if you just do freelance work and sell your footage untouched to stations then perhaps P2s are a pain (since they have the capturing decks), but if you're going to handle your footage in any way it's really not as big of a pricing issue as it's made out to be.
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Since I'm in no major hurry now, I'm gonna wait and see what happens with the P2's. If they increase in storage and drop in price, I'll probably go shopping at that time. But between now and then, anything could happen. With blu-ray making its way into the market, anything could happen.
 
I was all set to buy the Cineporter when released, I still may; but one thing is making me re-think going with Cineporter and not the P2 workflow; Weight.
When using the Cineporter and Firestore you are effectively tied to the camera with a cable. The implications when using it on a jib or steadicam mean that as well as cables from Audio to mixers and headphones, wireless mics etc you have another cable to contend with: and the HVX is not a big camera; so it can get pretty cluttered.
If I do go with two 8gb P2 cards and a P2 Store I have a proven workflow which can store almost 3 hours in total in 720 25p (Cineporter 150 min and two 16min cards. APROX). OK it costs more but I'm thinking the whole idea of being tethered to another device is just another thing that can go wrong. And if I do decide to use my laptop and DV rack for monitoring and recording I can be sure my footage is also safe on the P2 Card as well.
 
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Abaddon said:
Since I'm in no major hurry now, I'm gonna wait and see what happens with the P2's. If they increase in storage and drop in price, I'll probably go shopping at that time. But between now and then, anything could happen. With blu-ray making its way into the market, anything could happen.
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Nothing wrong with a 'wait and see' attitude. With new P2 capacities and related price adjustments, the Cineporter and potentially new AVCHD cams all right around the corner... waiting probably isn't such a bad idea if you don't need the camera now.
 
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