When will owning an HVX be more practical?

Abaddon

Abaddon

Well-known member
I'm definitely considering buying an HVX, but I'm still not prepared to deal with the expensive and low storage P2 cards and I don't want to deal with external drives and all that. I'd buy it if it would record HD onto tape, even though the idea is to get away from tape.

I know at some point the prices will drop on storage and such, so I'll choose to wait. Any ideas as to when it would be a good time to buy?
 
Do you have a $/GB or $/sec. target?

If you're on a budget and worry about delivering against a bleeding-edge workflow, go buy a Sony Z1U. I offer this suggestion over the JVC or Canon XL1H because the Z1U is more comparable in form-factor to the HVX than any of the interchangable glass models. If you want the capacity to change glass, I personally prefer the XLH1 over the JVC for several reasons, but that's another conversation. Canon has another fixed-lens HDV camera due this November - might be worth waiting for if you're into waiting.

You can shoot onto $5 Sony tapes for 63 minutes at a time, and, up until very recently, HDV tape was completely acceptable as an origination material for even the most demanding cable networks.

Aside from the occasional drop-out (as in most MiniDV tape format systems), you'll have a much easier time originating and managing your media with HDV. HDV is getting a major push from Sony with further enhancements to Vegas this fall, so you can [continue to] edit it on a well-appointed PC.

You don't indicate what you shoot, but with about 500 hours on them, I'm pretty comfortable in reporting that the Z1U is a well conceived, manufactured and easy to use camera for anything that might benefit from the look and feel of 1080i.

e
 
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I justify the cost like this:

If I were shooting HDV, I'd have to get a deck for capturing since using your camera as a deck is just dumb as you are likely to break down the VCR and turn your camera into a 6k paperweight (man I use that term a lot). Most HDV decks I see will run AT LEAST 2k which is about the same as you'd pay for a FS-100 or two 4 gig cards and a decent laptop to offload. Hence, as far as cost goes, it balances out of you're doing things the proffessional way.

As for convenience, yeah, offloading is a ***** and I hope cards become higher capacity and cheaper soon. That said, I love the P2 workflow so much i'm willing to wait.
 
overlandfilms said:
Do you have a $/GB or $/sec. target?

If you're on a budget and worry about delivering against a bleeding-edge workflow, go buy a Sony Z1U. I offer this suggestion over the JVC or Canon XL1H because the Z1U is more comparable in form-factor to the HVX than any of the interchangable glass models. If you want the capacity to change glass, I personally prefer the XLH1 over the JVC for several reasons, but that's another conversation. Canon has another fixed-lens HDV camera due this November - might be worth waiting for if you're into waiting.

You can shoot onto $5 Sony tapes for 63 minutes at a time, and, up until very recently, HDV tape was completely acceptable as an origination material for even the most demanding cable networks.

Aside from the occasional drop-out (as in most MiniDV tape format systems), you'll have a much easier time originating and managing your media with HDV. HDV is getting a major push from Sony with further enhancements to Vegas this fall, so you can [continue to] edit it on a well-appointed PC.

You don't indicate what you shoot, but with about 500 hours on them, I'm pretty comfortable in reporting that the Z1U is a well conceived, manufactured and easy to use camera for anything that might benefit from the look and feel of 1080i.

e
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The Sony's cool. I use it on shoots from time to time, but I like the HVX images much better. I need a camera that I can use for TV style and film style.

In many ways, I would prefer using tape over P2 cards and external drives because tapes can always be stacked and put away, keeping the original footage, as opposed to recording data and eventually running out of storage for it.

It would be cool if Panasonic could develop an HDV tape for the HVX.
 
"It would be cool if Panasonic could develop an HDV tape for the HVX."

I agree, wouldn't that be the ultimate?
One method of backup is DVD. A 4Gb P2 card will fit nicely on a single DVD. If you have an assistant and a laptop with you while you shoot, they can be offloading P2 cards into the laptop and burning DVDs as you go. Very nice.
 
DavidBeier said:
I justify the cost like this:

If I were shooting HDV, I'd have to get a deck for capturing since using your camera as a deck is just dumb as you are likely to break down the VCR and turn your camera into a 6k paperweight (man I use that term a lot). Most HDV decks I see will run AT LEAST 2k which is about the same as you'd pay for a FS-100 or two 4 gig cards and a decent laptop to offload. Hence, as far as cost goes, it balances out of you're doing things the proffessional way.

As for convenience, yeah, offloading is a ***** and I hope cards become higher capacity and cheaper soon. That said, I love the P2 workflow so much i'm willing to wait.
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I think the P2 technology is great but they have a long way to go. If another company made the cards, the price would drop nicely and companies would be increasing the storage dramatically.

I guess for now, the portable decks are the way to go, but it must be kind of a pain in the ass to carry the thing around, especially when you just need to grab the camera and run with it.
 
Can Scanner said:
"It would be cool if Panasonic could develop an HDV tape for the HVX."

I agree, wouldn't that be the ultimate?
One method of backup is DVD. A 4Gb P2 card will fit nicely on a single DVD. If you have an assistant and a laptop with you while you shoot, they can be offloading P2 cards into the laptop and burning DVDs as you go. Very nice.
Click to expand...


Yeah, but that goes back to my other issue of needing to grab the camera and run. It's way too messy carrying the camera and all that extra gear around, especially being alone on a job.

I just don't get why there's no HDV tape for the HVX. Is it because they want to lock people into buying the P2's?
 
overlandfilms said:
Do you have a $/GB or $/sec. target?

If you're on a budget and worry about delivering against a bleeding-edge workflow, go buy a Sony Z1U. I offer this suggestion over the JVC or Canon XL1H because the Z1U is more comparable in form-factor to the HVX than any of the interchangable glass models. If you want the capacity to change glass, I personally prefer the XLH1 over the JVC for several reasons, but that's another conversation. Canon has another fixed-lens HDV camera due this November - might be worth waiting for if you're into waiting.

You can shoot onto $5 Sony tapes for 63 minutes at a time, and, up until very recently, HDV tape was completely acceptable as an origination material for even the most demanding cable networks.

Aside from the occasional drop-out (as in most MiniDV tape format systems), you'll have a much easier time originating and managing your media with HDV. HDV is getting a major push from Sony with further enhancements to Vegas this fall, so you can [continue to] edit it on a well-appointed PC.

You don't indicate what you shoot, but with about 500 hours on them, I'm pretty comfortable in reporting that the Z1U is a well conceived, manufactured and easy to use camera for anything that might benefit from the look and feel of 1080i.

e
Click to expand...

Overlandfilms, I agree with you in the majority of your post. However, I would also suggest the original poster to look at the Canon A1. All the good things the z1 has, plus better resolution and better 24p (f). Or wait for the JVC Hd 250- the real contender, for me.
 
SPZ said:
Overlandfilms, I agree with you in the majority of your post. However, I would also suggest the original poster to look at the Canon A1. All the good things the z1 has, plus better resolution and better 24p (f). Or wait for the JVC Hd 250- the real contender, for me.
Click to expand...


Most of all, I'm interested in a camera that produces the most filmic quality for the price. That's what got me to buy the DVX years ago.
 
HDV is not the same as DVCPRO-HD. If the HVX were an HDV camera, I'd never buy it. Color space, no Long GOP, NLE compatability, it all makes the HVX a nicer camera. If it were HDV, it would be another peice of pro-sumer junk. DVCPRO-HD is half of what makes the HVX200 such a sweet camera. Besides, you can't easirly do alternative frame rates with HDV with it's Long GOP structire, that'd just make it a royal PITA.

No go look at the prices for DVCPRO-HD tape and decks, and the alternative doesn't look so bad.

I am shooting a documentary that demands a lot of traveling to remote locations (via boat, jeep, etc), outdoors, nature like shoots, and we take the HVX200 and an FS-100 and a Powerbook and are good to go. I also use the Cinesaddle a lot, so most of what we carry fits inside there. The FS-100 fits inside your HVX200's camera bag, so there really is nothing "extra" to lug around. As for set up, I don't have any problems. We run and gun all day long, from boats, trees, waist high water, we don't have any problems.
 
Abaddon said:
Most of all, I'm interested in a camera that produces the most filmic quality for the price. That's what got me to buy the DVX years ago.
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Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see your total budget anywhere. Anyway, the HVX is my personal favorite "affordable" HD product by a good margin. But, it is NOT a $5500 ready-to-go HD cam. Its a $5500 HD head and you are right to look into the expenses associated with capture and storage.

You could add a FireStore for around $1700-1800 and that would put your package at just under 7.5K and you don't need to carry a deck or laptop with you.

IF you own a good laptop already, consider an HVX with one 4Gig card for 6K and offload onto the laptop and/or capture directly to the laptop with something like the forthcoming DVCRACK (more $$ though).


Alternatively, the Canon XH A1 is coming out around Oct/Nov for $3999 and should be a fantastic HDV tape based camera. If you don't mind HDV, then its 24F recording mode and extensive manual controls might well suit your purposes. Its not DVCPROHD, but it is around half the money of a typical entry level HVX rig and should enjoy a decent resale value if you decide to move up to an HVX later.

www.philipwilliams.com
 
overlandfilms said:
You can shoot onto $5 Sony tapes for 63 minutes at a time, and, up until very recently, HDV tape was completely acceptable as an origination material for even the most demanding cable networks.
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I've been put off the HVX200 because the broadcasters (read: Discovery Channel) are lumping it in with HDV. They won't accept it (unless it's a small percentage of the show, with special permission.) That removes some of the appeal of shooting DVCPRO HD onto P2 cards. Now I am thinking, for really personal/independent work, that the new Canon XH A1 might make more sense.
 
Abaddon said:
In many ways, I would prefer using tape over P2 cards and external drives because tapes can always be stacked and put away, keeping the original footage, as opposed to recording data and eventually running out of storage for it.
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Just burn 4GB P2 Cards onto DVD-R's and you've got your "tape" archive.
 
DC said:
Just burn 4GB P2 Cards onto DVD-R's and you've got your "tape" archive.
Click to expand...

I thought that's what we were all doing? My current project I've already got 12 DVDs worth of P2s MXFs and it's a hell of a lot easier to manage and transport than a bunch of HDV tapes.

Anyway, the HVX200 doesn't do HDV because it would require Pansonic writing an entirly new codec since DVCProHD is 100mbs and HDV is only 25mbs. And yes, I wish the price would come down too but hopefully it will pave the way for a better way of working. Seriously, once you get used to P2 it's very hard to go back to tape.
 
DCI, to my knowledge, has not recognized DVCProHD files on DVD or HDD as an acceptable archival format. As we all know, HDCam ATSC 1080i is the mandated delivery format for DCI content. Discovery, by special arrangement, will accept HDV originated MiniDV content if it is delivered on HDCam media.

I've been told that XDCamHD (at 35Mb/s bitrate) recently received the green light from DCI as an archival format, though deliverable broadcast masters must still be HDCam.

e
 
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^
It's their loss. Considering that show many network shows are still shot on mini-DV, the idea of refusing DVCProHD, a much higher quality format than HDV, mini-DV, or XDCamHD, DCI seems likes it's making a pretty silly move.
 
Abaddon I feel your pain.

For a long time I was struggling with many of the same concerns, but at the end if you consider your serious options (excluding HDV, of course...) like XDCAM, HDX (when available) and other even bigger ‘dogs’, the HVX is very practical $$$ and it delivers similar quality footage.

As you see from these posts people and finding creative and practical ways to deal with the limitations and getting shooting in real life situations all over.

Anyway, take a long breath and go for what you feel is the better $/practical/quality option.
 
BenB said:
HDV is not the same as DVCPRO-HD. If the HVX were an HDV camera, I'd never buy it. Color space, no Long GOP, NLE compatability, it all makes the HVX a nicer camera. If it were HDV, it would be another peice of pro-sumer junk. DVCPRO-HD is half of what makes the HVX200 such a sweet camera. Besides, you can't easirly do alternative frame rates with HDV with it's Long GOP structire, that'd just make it a royal PITA.

No go look at the prices for DVCPRO-HD tape and decks, and the alternative doesn't look so bad.

I am shooting a documentary that demands a lot of traveling to remote locations (via boat, jeep, etc), outdoors, nature like shoots, and we take the HVX200 and an FS-100 and a Powerbook and are good to go. I also use the Cinesaddle a lot, so most of what we carry fits inside there. The FS-100 fits inside your HVX200's camera bag, so there really is nothing "extra" to lug around. As for set up, I don't have any problems. We run and gun all day long, from boats, trees, waist high water, we don't have any problems.
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I guess what I menat was that I wish there was a DVCPRO HD tape for this camera. I would just find it to be so much easier to just pop a tape in and go. I'm sure the FS-100 isn't a horror to carry, but it's still an extra thing to have strapped with a cable attached.
 
Abaddon said:
I guess what I menat was that I wish there was a DVCPRO HD tape for this camera. I would just find it to be so much easier to just pop a tape in and go.
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I wish my Jeep Cherokee had a 7.0 liter, super-charged V8 engine like some Hummers. It doesn't.

The record heads (for DVCProHD) alone would cost thousands of dollars. That's a big part of the reason why the VariCam is upwards of $70,000. The HVX achieves its high def recording by virtue of P2 technology, thus saving shmucks like us a lot of money. :)
 
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