Im gonna kinda sorta agree with Elton for a brief moment believe it or not.. The HD-SDI out is actually a very powerful output.. as soon as someone figures out how to make a firestore with a HD-SDI input things will most likely change.
Canon Unveils New Prosumer HDV Line: XH G1 and XH A1
- Thread starter Yardsale
- Start date
Hectorxd
Well-known member
Hey
I got to see and play with this camera for a little while at the WEVA convention in vegas this past week. I didnt take any notes but I did put it in 24 mode and it looked pretty good. I didnt have a DVX directly beside it to compare but the 24 on the canon looked about the same.
I did notice something about the footage I was seeing on the LCD right away though: Noise. Im not sure what the status of this camera was though, so I dont know if this is the final product or not, though I imagine it is.
The noise was everywhere, mostly on the blacks. It wasnt hooked up to a monitor so I couldnt see what the image looked like on a regular screen. I forgot to look through the eyepiece to see if the noise could be seen through there. If anyone is on the fence about the camera, check out some footage first or play with the camera first.
I liked how it looked and how it felt, but the noise was too much for me IF that noise makes it to the footage. I dont know if that was just on the LCD or what.
Im not anti canon so I dont need any arguments here I just wanted to post my observations after groping it for a few minutes.
There were actually 2 of the cameras at the show. Also, almost everyone had an HVX on display at their booth.
Brian
I got to see and play with this camera for a little while at the WEVA convention in vegas this past week. I didnt take any notes but I did put it in 24 mode and it looked pretty good. I didnt have a DVX directly beside it to compare but the 24 on the canon looked about the same.
I did notice something about the footage I was seeing on the LCD right away though: Noise. Im not sure what the status of this camera was though, so I dont know if this is the final product or not, though I imagine it is.
The noise was everywhere, mostly on the blacks. It wasnt hooked up to a monitor so I couldnt see what the image looked like on a regular screen. I forgot to look through the eyepiece to see if the noise could be seen through there. If anyone is on the fence about the camera, check out some footage first or play with the camera first.
I liked how it looked and how it felt, but the noise was too much for me IF that noise makes it to the footage. I dont know if that was just on the LCD or what.
Im not anti canon so I dont need any arguments here I just wanted to post my observations after groping it for a few minutes.
There were actually 2 of the cameras at the show. Also, almost everyone had an HVX on display at their booth.
Brian
Elton said:
i'm a Codecist..... im sorry its a sad fact...... i m embarrased. lol.
I understand. and the canon Does put out a good Effin picture. i wanna see the canon's HDV stream pushed hard though, and im not talking moving trees im talking a slow zoom, with moving trees in a pan, with explosions and strobe lights..... because..... well i dunno. but i'd like to know my image wont fall apart.
and i'll be honest in saying, i cannot afford any SDI capturing rightnow, so i would be stuck with HDV. Aside from being a DP i am a Videoartist, and i make some pretty crazy images, with lots of weird stuff going on all the time. the thought of even slight macroblocking would kill me.
I dont care about brand loyalty actually. i am just weary of the acquisition medium. I understand the Jpeg2000 or cineform codecs, but if your starting point is macroblocked, (the origional HDV stream goes crazy) your 422 intermiediate coded isnt going to help you.
infact if anyone out htere can put together a Canon HDV stress test clip, just so w can see under "worst" case, i'd much appreciate it. i just wanna know what we can expect if all goes wrong. ive seen Sony HDV worst case in barrys example with the pirate ship. i hear Canons is TONS beter. but i wanna see it. and unfortuantly i dont know anyone with a canon.
And Elton, im not saying this to be a pain, i seriously jut want to know, because if it holds up, i'll be first in line to buy an XL-------.
I'd like to second TimurCivan's request. Not to be a pain, but I don't have a local store that carries this equipment, I'll be making my $4000 decision based on your guys' info and then ordering online.
Also -- I'd really like to know what it's like working with cineform. I've visited the site and it claims 4 streams without lag. Is this true? Or can I just plan on using PPro 2's HDV ability. (saving me $500)
Also -- How would I convert HDV 1080i to SD 4:2:2? I'm on PC, with AE 7 and PPro 2. And so far the software people have discussed looks to be FCP only.
Also -- I'd really like to know what it's like working with cineform. I've visited the site and it claims 4 streams without lag. Is this true? Or can I just plan on using PPro 2's HDV ability. (saving me $500)
Also -- How would I convert HDV 1080i to SD 4:2:2? I'm on PC, with AE 7 and PPro 2. And so far the software people have discussed looks to be FCP only.
Hectorxd
Well-known member
I dont think the gain was on, I believe I turned it off and it didnt help. The showroom wasnt really dark. The lights werent dim or anything. I used lots of other cameras there and didnt see the grain like the canon. I hope someone else that was there chimes in on the camera and what they saw with it. B & H had one in there line up of cameras so maybe they have them at their store for people to look at. I think the other one was at calumet photography or something like that.
The weva trade show itself was pretty dissapointing this year. Lots of vendors bailed out.
The panasonic Queen was there though at the pana booth. Canon didnt have a booth, but all the other camera companies did, kind of odd.
The weva trade show itself was pretty dissapointing this year. Lots of vendors bailed out.
The panasonic Queen was there though at the pana booth. Canon didnt have a booth, but all the other camera companies did, kind of odd.
Elton
Veteran
How about 24F footage of whitewater rapids with people getting plowed and soaked on their raft? That's about one of the worst things you can throw at the codec.
I'll throw up an .m2t (raw HDV) and you guys can be the judge.
I'm out workin' on my yard (layin' sod on a 1/3 acre--yikes!) so look for it late this evening.
I'll throw up an .m2t (raw HDV) and you guys can be the judge.
I'm out workin' on my yard (layin' sod on a 1/3 acre--yikes!) so look for it late this evening.
thanks dude
Elton
Veteran
Here ya go...http://www.realm.cc/upload/Elton/Rafters24F-1.m2t (75 MB)
The shot is a bit overexposed in the middle of the clip due to bright overhead sunlight, extremely reflective water, and using the 16x manual lens. I didn't want to close the iris down too much which softens the picture.
The frame is mostly filled with the rapids and the rafters so it's pretty much a worst case scenario for the camera and HDV codec.
One other thing: many who watch raw 24F .m2t clips note a strange cadence. Here's the reason--the files encoded from the camera have embedded repeat frame info that is meant for the camera's decoder to play out and insert proper pulldown for 1080i HDTV sets. The raw file played through VLC or possibly WMP plays as a 29.97 clip and will show repeat frames that are easily discarded by encoding the material into an intermediate format at true 24 fps. For anyone that would like to convert the clip into true 24p here's a method I've used: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=492340&postcount=7
The shot is a bit overexposed in the middle of the clip due to bright overhead sunlight, extremely reflective water, and using the 16x manual lens. I didn't want to close the iris down too much which softens the picture.
The frame is mostly filled with the rapids and the rafters so it's pretty much a worst case scenario for the camera and HDV codec.
One other thing: many who watch raw 24F .m2t clips note a strange cadence. Here's the reason--the files encoded from the camera have embedded repeat frame info that is meant for the camera's decoder to play out and insert proper pulldown for 1080i HDTV sets. The raw file played through VLC or possibly WMP plays as a 29.97 clip and will show repeat frames that are easily discarded by encoding the material into an intermediate format at true 24 fps. For anyone that would like to convert the clip into true 24p here's a method I've used: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=492340&postcount=7
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And that, my friends, is why I'll be owning an A1 if another camrea with more to offer doesn't show up. You'd be hard pressed to convince me that HDV isn't adequate enough straight to tape on the A1. And with the new knowledge of being able to tether and capture to a card VIA composite to DVCPRO HD?
Yeah. I'm still in. But geez--
RELEASE DATE PLEASE! FOR THE LOVE OF LANDO!
Yeah. I'm still in. But geez--
RELEASE DATE PLEASE! FOR THE LOVE OF LANDO!
Elton
Veteran
Kholi said:
DVCPRO HD is a good codec, but there are better options if you capture component analog or SDI uncompressed. If you get an Intel Mac Pro, in the near future you will have the options of CineForm (fall release on QT), Sheer or PhotoJPEG. All of these will give you full-raster HD to work with, rather than a sub-sampled HD raster (which of course is still damn good) ala DVCPro HD or even HDV.
Many don't know this but there is even more resolution to be gained from acquisition via analog/SDI because the camera performs pixel shift on the green ccd, which adds extra horizontal information that actually allows the XL-H1 (and now the XH cameras) to achieve full 1920x1080 resolution in square pixels...from 1440x1080 CCD's. No pixel aspect ratios like DVCProHD 1080i at 1.5 or HDV at 1.33.
This of course isn't necessary for most, but there is a perceivable resolution boost when recording full-raster 1080.
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Elton said:
You did mention Sheer or PhotoJPEG. But what's it like working with PhotoJPEG?
Hell, it doesn't even matter to me. Those things are even better, but as it sits now there's more than enough reason to purchase one on release.
And I didn't know that you'd get more resolution out of the cam going Analog/SDI. You mentioned this before and I can't find it-- but what's the advantage of SDI over Analog again?
Elton
Veteran
Kholi said:
PhotoJPEG is an amazing codec and it's been around a long time but seldom used. With a fast G5 it is very snappy to work with on a 1080p timeline. At 1920x1080 frame size and a 75% quality you work in bit rates roughly equivalent to DVCPRO HD with full 4:2:2 processing, but the frame is full resolution with no pixel aspect ratio business to deal with. It makes integration with AE and Photoshop even easier, IMHO.
Signal quality-wise there's scarcely a difference between the uncompressed analog output and the SDI. Where SDI is nice is that it's a simple BNC cable that connects to your computer and you can have longer cable runs if desired. Also, with the new G1 you now get embedded audio and timecode, which is like having a super-firewire cable that gives you much higher quality without having to mess with additional cabling into the computer.
Currently with the XL-H1 I have to record audio seperately from the SDI signal and sync it up on a timeline. I also have to stream timecode via an LANC to RS422 adapter cable in order to have an accurate reference from source tapes.
HDV is much simpler to deal with than SDI but the uncompressed output is a very nice option in general.
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Elton
Veteran
Hectorxd said:
It might've literally been a noisy LCD screen. I don't think the cameras are finalized and had their last tweaks anyway so it's premature to draw any conclusions.
You really can't judge an HD image anyway on those teeny LCD flip-out screens. You need to have seen it on a decent HD monitor and know the camera settings (what gain level, if NR has been engaged, etc.) before making judgments about image quality.
Elton said:
On the G5 issue-- I've got a great G5 setup, so that's the least of my worries. I'm sure I'll be fine with that. Perhaps, when moving to the Mac Pro Desktop and Macbook setup soon, then I'll be a bit "Hmm" about it. What I think will end up happening with my post solutions is: G5 desktop and Macbook for on-the-go. Especially with the Adobe roll-out this October, I should have a quck Macbook very very soon.
On the Uncompressed Signal-- The SDI would be a nice option, very nice... but my trade-off is a Lens Adapter or some more production gear. Even picking up a Kona card and an A1 sounds like a better solution in my case.
Two more [ignorant] questions: Does the Analog signal carry audio as well? And there probably still isn't a Firestore/Cineporter/Truely mobile solution for Analog capture, is there?
I need to do more research on those cards. Namely to see if there's one you can attach to a Laptop or at least a new Mac Mini.
