Meaning of "Support MXF Natively"

David Saraceno

David Saraceno

Moderator
Staff member
Exactly what is meant by this?

If FCS 5.2.1 supports MXF natively, how does that affect workflow?

Would I be able to export a sequence of MXF and then copy the folder to a p2 card?
 
Let's describe it in terms that EDIUS uses, since it has the best native MXF support.

With EDIUS, you put the card in your computer, and use the P2 Select tool to import clips into your bin. Because it's MXF-aware, EDIUS automatically knows to bring in all the audio files, use the proper thumbnail, and leaves the metadata intact. It's instantaneous -- no file conversion, no duplicate files, it just immediately registers those clips as being imported.

It will also find and automatically link all the spanned clips together, so if a clip spanned from one card to another, EDIUS knows how to knit them back together into one solid continuous clip.

As you work with the clip (which, again, can be off the card, or can be directly off the hard disk that you transferred to) you can at any time update the metadata or whatever.

Because it's native MXF, you could edit off the card and never even transfer your footage to hard disk if you didn't want to.

When it's finished editing, you can then go to export your footage. EDIUS has a P2 Export module which lets you export a camera-playable MXF back to the card (or to a hard disk). And, because it knows all about the MXF, the P2 Export module also lets you annotate or edit or create appropriate metadata for the clips.

Now, let's put it in context with how this affects a real-world workflow. If you're out shooting an infomercial, and offloading cards to an external hard disk, you may run up 600 gigs of footage. Maybe 150 4-gig partitions full. When you go to EDIUS, you just import those files to your bin and begin editing. If FCP allows native MXF, you could do the same thing. But with FCP 5.1.1 you can't -- you'd have to manually go to each and every one of those 150 partitions, and tell it to "import->Panasonic P2". Then wait while it converts the files from MXF to QT. Then, of course, you'll also need 600gb of storage for it to convert those files to. And converting 150 cards will take time, maybe 10 to 15 hours.

With native MXF support that all goes away. Drop the files on the timeline and edit, instantly.

With any luck, if FCS 5.2.1 supports proper native MXF, Mac-based HVX workflow is about to be substantially improved. I hope it's legit and not just an unsubstantiated rumor!
 
So assuming 5.2.1 has native mxf support, I could export from the sequence directly to the card WITHOUT having to print to video via firewire?

All I do is target the card, and export to it?

No print to video?
 
It's not set in stone yet, just a rumor floating.

But, after Barry's freakin' detailed explaination...

I guess it'd be a really great thing if it were true.

That was an interesting spur 'o the moment read, Barry. Thanks.
 
The extent of 5.2.1's MXF support is not known. At a bare minimum, I'd expect seamless importing without conversion. Who knows if they'll also implement exporting.
 
Thanks Barry. You've just described the Matrox Axio P2/MXF workflow!

I guess there's now two "best" systems.

[Correction: in PPro2, if you import files directly from the P2 card, then remove the card, you "offline" the media. MXF files must physically reside in the location they were imported from. Edius doesn't need the physical files to be copied to the NLE???]


On a more technical note, importing MXF files into PPro2 via Axio always brings all four mono audio channels from the HVX. When using a single lav mic (one channel only), is there a way to "turn off" the other empty channels so as to minimize the number of unused tracks on the timeline? Yes, you can 'turn off' the channels at the camera, making them empty channels, but can you turn them off so they don't exist in the MXF file?

Just wondering....trying to save some clutter.
John
 
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Barry_Green said:
Because it's native MXF, you could edit off the card and never even transfer your footage to hard disk if you didn't want to.
Click to expand...

You can do this with Axio/PPro2 too, but if you remove, or format the P2 card without transferring files to your local machine, say goodbye to your files!

It would be unwise to do this if you planned on relocating the MXF files after importing them to PPro2. You'd have to re-link the now-offlined files to the source files at their new location.

I'll assume Edius is the same way.

So you could import and edit direct from P2 Store, if you were never going to delete those files or reformat the P2 Store. Otherwise, transfer the files.
John
 
Different programs deal with MXFs differently.

Edius apparently can do anything your heart desires. It rocks as far as the HVX200 goes as far as I'm told.

Avid works pretty good too. It can also detect your P2 card in the camera slot and let you edit stait from the card (or you can copy the files to your HD). It also automatically puts the sound files and the video files together. No duplication. No waste of space. Unfortunatly, it doesn't go ahead and extract redundant frames if you are editing in 24p encoded to 60i. 24pN is great but, all 60i aquisitions will have to be edited on a 60i timeline.

FCP does NOT support MXFs natively nor do Vegas or Premere from what I've heard. With FCP, you have to convert the files first. Once converted, it can apparently extract the redundant frames from a 60i signal however.
 
DavidBeier said:
Different programs deal with MXFs differently.
.

Avid works pretty good too. It can also detect your P2 card in the camera slot and let you edit stait from the card (or you can copy the files to your HD). It also automatically puts the sound files and the video files together. No duplication. No waste of space. Unfortunatly, it doesn't go ahead and extract redundant frames if you are editing in 24p encoded to 60i. 24pN is great but, all 60i aquisitions will have to be edited on a 60i timeline.

FCP does NOT support MXFs natively nor do Vegas or Premere from what I've heard. With FCP, you have to convert the files first. Once converted, it can apparently extract the redundant frames from a 60i signal however.
Click to expand...

Axio with Premiere is a whole different ball game than Premiere standalone.
Axio also links MXF video with audio files. You only have to import the video files and the audio files tag along. Video thumbnails are created in the Project window from the MXF files. Matrox has also added some features to allow MXF thumbnails to be visible in Explorer/My Computer.

Adobe Bridge is behind the game. Bridge currently does not support MXF. Some day, IMO, Bridge will be an excellent MXF database system. They need to allow file renaming (audio files would get renamed automatically upon video file rename) and allow you to enter search keys (metadata), in preparation for the day when Blu-Ray archival workflow comes along. These are my opinions of what Adobe will do if they're smart....and they usually are.

As far as mixing formats on Axio, RT 720 to 1080 (and back) conversions are possible if frame rates are similar, ie 720/24pN and 1080i/24PA* can be "scaled to frame" in RT and vice versa. *Axio sees HVX200 1080i/24PA shooting mode as Matrox 1080p @ 23.976 project setting.

With Axio, native MXF files can be imported to After Effects. Very cool indeed.
John
 
John Morgan said:
. . . As far as mixing formats on Axio, RT 720 to 1080 (and back) conversions are possible if frame rates are similar, ie 720/24pN and 1080i/24PA* can be "scaled to frame" in RT and vice versa. *Axio sees HVX200 1080i/24PA shooting mode as Matrox 1080p @ 23.976 project setting.

With Axio, native MXF files can be imported to After Effects. Very cool indeed.
John
Click to expand...

That's a good point (two actually):

Edius Broadcast doesn't care what the formats/frame rates are . . . you can mix anything on the same timeline--runs without issues.

On the flip side (and perhaps the only downside) there is virtually no direct support of AE . . . but I guess there isn't for much else either unless it's an Adobe product, or partner. You, of course, can import any finished AE work into Edius though.
 
Final Cut Pro 5.2.1 ... For about 24 hours it was mentioned on the performance webpage of the MacPro http://www.apple.com/macpro/performance.html it was
then deleted and now only mentions at the bottom tests were done with a beta version of FCP. The Logic 7.2.2 mention is still on the page. My guess is that Apple will reveal it at IBC in Amsterdam ... would make sense no?
 
According to Paul Saccone, the 5.2.1 was a misprint. I still expect native MXF support within FCP at some point.

Ned Soltz
 
Now i feel a little stupid...!?

Now i feel a little stupid...!?

Barry_Green said:
Let's describe it in terms that EDIUS uses, since it has the best native MXF support.

With EDIUS, you put the card in your computer, and use the P2 Select tool to import clips into your bin. Because it's MXF-aware, EDIUS automatically knows to bring in all the audio files, use the proper thumbnail, and leaves the metadata intact. It's instantaneous -- no file conversion, no duplicate files, it just immediately registers those clips as being imported.

It will also find and automatically link all the spanned clips together, so if a clip spanned from one card to another, EDIUS knows how to knit them back together into one solid continuous clip.

As you work with the clip (which, again, can be off the card, or can be directly off the hard disk that you transferred to) you can at any time update the metadata or whatever.

Because it's native MXF, you could edit off the card and never even transfer your footage to hard disk if you didn't want to.

When it's finished editing, you can then go to export your footage. EDIUS has a P2 Export module which lets you export a camera-playable MXF back to the card (or to a hard disk). And, because it knows all about the MXF, the P2 Export module also lets you annotate or edit or create appropriate metadata for the clips.

Now, let's put it in context with how this affects a real-world workflow. If you're out shooting an infomercial, and offloading cards to an external hard disk, you may run up 600 gigs of footage. Maybe 150 4-gig partitions full. When you go to EDIUS, you just import those files to your bin and begin editing. If FCP allows native MXF, you could do the same thing. But with FCP 5.1.1 you can't -- you'd have to manually go to each and every one of those 150 partitions, and tell it to "import->Panasonic P2". Then wait while it converts the files from MXF to QT. Then, of course, you'll also need 600gb of storage for it to convert those files to. And converting 150 cards will take time, maybe 10 to 15 hours.

With native MXF support that all goes away. Drop the files on the timeline and edit, instantly.

With any luck, if FCS 5.2.1 supports proper native MXF, Mac-based HVX workflow is about to be substantially improved. I hope it's legit and not just an unsubstantiated rumor!
Click to expand...

I am not sure Barry, but one thing in your exmple, i have to do as well in Edius(hope i was Stupid and i can do it an easyer way too...)-when i got those 150 4gig folders from each card, i HAVE to open ech folder in EDIUS to import the footage...!(of course i wouldnt have to do it if i download the P2 directly through Edius to the harddisk, then the cards-content would show up in the certain edius-project..!)

But lets say i am starting a new project, or i just have copied the 150 cards to my HDD, then i have to open each of the 150 folders to get the footage imported to edius, right?

Thanks Barry, sorry for making it long, wanted to be clear..which always ends up being loooong!:Drogar-Evil(DBG):
 
What if you already have files in FCP, can I convert them back to MFX? I'd like to put them back in my HVX to dub to DV tape for a client. Or can this be done another way?
 
You could "print to video" them back to the HVX, or you could just export a DV version and have FCP do the conversion for you.
 
THANKS BARRY
Would I fire wire that to the HVX DV recorder?
I'm still struggling with this nontape tape world.
 
If you're trying to distribute a DV tape, you could put the HVX in tape mode and then output from FCP via firewire to the HVX in VCR mode to record on its tape.
 
Sounds like the Edius native support is quite extensive BUT:

In terms of where the world of P2 or "tapeless workflow" is currently at, there are still a couple of serious workflow gaps that need to be worked out.

A. Online/Offline editing
B. External Audio capture


I hope FCP or Avid ( I think it will be Avid) really dig in and work out a professional way to integrate P2 into a larger facility's workflow. I know timecode is not as important with P2 but until someone (some company) deals with A and B there's a pretty tricky gap in the workflow.

I wonder if the Sony XDcam has this timecode gap in it's workflow?
 
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Barry, can you please help me with this??

Barry, can you please help me with this??

hvx_germanboy said:
I am not sure Barry, but one thing in your exmple, i have to do as well in Edius(hope i was Stupid and i can do it an easyer way too...)-when i got those 150 4gig folders from each card, i HAVE to open ech folder in EDIUS to import the footage...!(of course i wouldnt have to do it if i download the P2 directly through Edius to the harddisk, then the cards-content would show up in the certain edius-project..!)

But lets say i am starting a new project, or i just have copied the 150 cards to my HDD, then i have to open each of the 150 folders to get the footage imported to edius, right?

Thanks Barry, sorry for making it long, wanted to be clear..which always ends up being loooong!:Drogar-Evil(DBG):
Click to expand...


Like you can see the question in my quote above, i am wondering if there is a proper way to import dozens of folders in one time to the bin in EDIUS??

Thanks !!:)
 
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