Mathew Knight
Active member
kstnate said:
Search for elusive "Bombproof Workflow" & p2 store & Genie
- Thread starter kstnate
- Start date
Richard Sutcliffe
Well-known member
I just wrapped a shoot for a large sports event. 4 cameras shooting all day for 3 days. Runners took the cards to the production room, dragged the cards to folders via the powerbook pcmcia slot and I now have 600gb+ shot and backed up. Not a single copy problem was encountered. Thats just the shoot obviously, I have post to go through too but as far as the shoot goes, I loved the experience and I would be happy to do it again.
Richard Sutcliffe
Well-known member
Workflow was, card to powerbook, drag and copy to firewire drive. Folders organised by day, operator, time of day. copy and original folders verified aginst each other for excact size. copy folder opened in P2 Log and clips played, original card contents deleted and recycled to the operators. Cards reformatted in camera. repeat till wrapped.
Richard Sutcliffe
Well-known member
Mathew, how exactly do you lay the blame with Panasonic for problems with the workflow you are using? You do state you are using P2 Genie, which is a third party app after all. I've not encountered any corrupt files doing straightforward copies. In fact, in almost twenty years of working with computers I can hardly even recall an occasion where I have made a copy of any file whatsoever which has been corrupt. Im not saying you are entirely wrong by any means but Apple and Avid are equally at fault, they have all tried to get workflows out but Im not convinced its possible to get a bombproof system unless its a turnkey system without a single plugin, virus checker, internet access or any other variable. If you modify your system or start with a modified system, there are a billion possible issues with workflow. I have found Panasonic in NZ to be very approachable here in NZ and extremely keen to develop P2 and assist the user base. if you are having issues, my advice would be pick up the phone and ask their advice.
Well, it might be time for one of us to call panasonic. I might do that in the next few days. I would like to point out the existence of p2genie (in my mind anyway) is a solution for the p2 store, which I both love and (beginning to) hate. The copying off the p2 store feels like it just never was thought of too much by panasonic, so people scrambled to fill a need. I would love to use a panasonic offloading software, but no such thing exists.
As far as corruptions via copying I think it is damn odd. But I know of a client who rented the hvx and loaded cards in via laptop and looked at stuff in FCP everything seemed fine, then they copied the files from small external drives to larger ones (I assume still the mxf, but in some sense it doesn't matter, at this point they were not using p2 genie (not sure if they used it in initial ingest) ) and they got corruption. I too have never had a fiile corrupted ever using a computer (barring HD failure) yet it does seem to happen in some scenarios.
Your point about each computer workstation being it's own animal and having potential quirks that could be crippling is well taken, but at the same time, if it is a moderately serious variable perhaps a turnkey solution should be in order either in the form of a black box you could plug your card/p2 store into and it dumps to a drive, guaranteed, or a strict white paper on what you need to have and not have on your system. I bought my g4 for this camera, and have not loaded it up with a bunch of stuff, yet I had a problem. BTW I have started a thread inquiring on problems while using PC as a platform, and interestingly, so far anyway, NO reports of lost or corrupted footage. Hmmmm..... I wonder how much a PC laptop costs.....
As far as corruptions via copying I think it is damn odd. But I know of a client who rented the hvx and loaded cards in via laptop and looked at stuff in FCP everything seemed fine, then they copied the files from small external drives to larger ones (I assume still the mxf, but in some sense it doesn't matter, at this point they were not using p2 genie (not sure if they used it in initial ingest) ) and they got corruption. I too have never had a fiile corrupted ever using a computer (barring HD failure) yet it does seem to happen in some scenarios.
Your point about each computer workstation being it's own animal and having potential quirks that could be crippling is well taken, but at the same time, if it is a moderately serious variable perhaps a turnkey solution should be in order either in the form of a black box you could plug your card/p2 store into and it dumps to a drive, guaranteed, or a strict white paper on what you need to have and not have on your system. I bought my g4 for this camera, and have not loaded it up with a bunch of stuff, yet I had a problem. BTW I have started a thread inquiring on problems while using PC as a platform, and interestingly, so far anyway, NO reports of lost or corrupted footage. Hmmmm..... I wonder how much a PC laptop costs.....
500lb Productions
Well-known member
VaricamLife said:
I think this is a disgraceful state of affairs. It is an embarassment for the entire industry.
I think that for ANY camera manucturer to deliver ANY camera without at least ONE 100% WORKING transfer mechanism that supports all modes of recording is a HIDEOUS BREACH OF PUBLIC TRUST.
It doesn't have to be the most elegant. It doesn't have to have the most features. But it should A) Produce at least one industry standard format B) be reliable and C) work for PCs and for MACs. Once you have that, THEN we can talk about alternate / improved workflows. But keep the damn horse in front of the cart.
If it has bugs, fix them and post updates online. But at least provide that one basic element of confidence for the users, that base on which we can build a workflow.
Mathew Knight
Active member
Yes Panasonic are helpful but they are as in the dark about the entire workflow as everyone else who begins. But I still think it is their responsibility. they brought out the P2 camera and its not acceptable to not have a recommended workflow. they admit the technology is very new and in my conversations with them they have simply referred to some people have done this some people have done that. I have yet to see a Panasonic recommended workflow that takes you from camera to edit software. In my conversations they seem to just concentrate on getting it the P2 card and thats where it ends.Richard Sutcliffe said:
One step forward is good but 3 steps backwards is unacceptable and must be improved and Panasonic can't stand at the back waiting for other people to make their camera a PROFESSIONAL system.
Don't get me wrong i like the camera but Panasonic should be suggesting and refining workflows and dessiminating this information every week until it is bombproof.
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I've had the "only some of the cards mount on the desktop" problem with both a Mac G5 running 10.4.7 and an Intel MacBook Pro running the same. You definitely need to keep a very accurate log of what you put in the P2 or there's a real good possible something will get lost. During a 2 week location shoot the P2 Store almost cost me a $40,000 contract. In the end I only lost a few shots (which we had to reshoot). I know there's other Mac users who are feeling the burn. Do you have any help outside of the "orange USB light" fix and the reboot 10 times while you sweat and say a prayer to the P2?
Richard Sutcliffe
Well-known member
Matthew,
You are not wrong and you are entitled to your opinion but personally I feel you are looking to the wrong parties for a solution with these issues. I guess it all comes down to new tech once again. The onus is very much on us to find a workflow that works for our own post prod setups. A community like this is invaluable and more helpful to me than a dozen white papers from Apple or Panasonic. As far as the HVX and p2 goes 99% of users would agree that there are no problems. As far as p2 and working with mxf files go, a large proportion of users seem to be having issues. For me, and I accept that everyones setup is different, I researched what I wanted to do, played it off against what I had to work with, tested what I was going to do and found that it worked. I don't doubt that there was a large element of luck involved. Im more than happy to talk about what worked for me if you want more info.
You are not wrong and you are entitled to your opinion but personally I feel you are looking to the wrong parties for a solution with these issues. I guess it all comes down to new tech once again. The onus is very much on us to find a workflow that works for our own post prod setups. A community like this is invaluable and more helpful to me than a dozen white papers from Apple or Panasonic. As far as the HVX and p2 goes 99% of users would agree that there are no problems. As far as p2 and working with mxf files go, a large proportion of users seem to be having issues. For me, and I accept that everyones setup is different, I researched what I wanted to do, played it off against what I had to work with, tested what I was going to do and found that it worked. I don't doubt that there was a large element of luck involved. Im more than happy to talk about what worked for me if you want more info.
Mathew Knight
Active member
yeah thats a fair comment Richard. And it sounds like your shoot was a serious test of the system so I'm glad it worked smoothly. And I also pre-tested and my shoots have gone 99% smoothly but I don't like loose ends.Richard Sutcliffe said:
Were you shooting HD or DVCPRO-50 on the multi-camera sports event ?
And I am probably really complaining about having to come to grips with the computer end of things even though I am a cameraman. But i am certainly going to keep shooting P2.
But is a few whitepapers really too much to ask of Panasonic ?
because it seems that many people on this and other forums are running into the same problems. And there's not really that many different issues.
really I don't want producers & productions company's to be put off P2 by having problems (not too mention me being responsible for a major problem). I feel I'm doing all I can to help panasonic by suggesting people shoot this new format. And when I see some relatively simply things that Panasonic could be doing to help people get up and running on the HVX I can't help but feel they are dropping the ball on the easy stuff.
Richard Sutcliffe
Well-known member
Mathew Knight said:
Our shoot was probs 85%DV50 15%720. Luckily we have had no issues with either the SD or HD footage and combined the two successfully in post.
Its definately in Panasonics best interests to support their user base throughout the whole production process, I can't argue with that. Im just not sure how they would go about advising such a varied group if there isn't a one size fits all solution.
A troubleshooting datatbase of issues and possible solutions would no doubt be a big help.
resolutionpost
New member
good workflow
good workflow
Nate,
It's Scott! We have several multiple camera HVX shoots under our belts and our workflow has been pretty smooth. We are using the following gear:
2 x Lacie 500 gig drives - Firewire 800
4 x 8 gig P2 cards
2 x Powerbooks G4 (NOT MACBOOK)
We fill up 2 8 gig cards and drop them off to our media loader who used P2 genie to offoad the raw files to the drive and then import from the Lacie into final cut. Once in final cut he checks the files and has the cards ready for us when we come back after shooting the other 2 8 gig cards. The the process starts all over again.
I think there is something to be said about the pcmcia transfer instead of the USB or firewire tranfer from the P2 store or direct from the camera. When I have done some test footage direct from the camrea via firewire I have had the "some clips had errors" message. Going from PCMCIA P2 direct to Lacie via firewire 800 has been PRETTY MONEY! The only issues we have had to date is the P2 genie software will sometimes lock up the powerbook causing us to reboot and then we are off and importing again.
One thing we should all remember when shooting P2 for our clients. They are not going to be paying us to capture/log all the footage from tape.......so since that cost is gone we are adding a Media Assistant to all of our P2 shoots.
At the end of our shoots we take the media from our lacie and move it to our Apple Raids and start cutting. Always keep multiple backups. We have a pelican case that had 2TB of lacie drives in it as part of our kit.
Food for thought. Hope this helps.
Rember to always USE A MAC and FCP!
Scott
good workflow
Nate,
It's Scott! We have several multiple camera HVX shoots under our belts and our workflow has been pretty smooth. We are using the following gear:
2 x Lacie 500 gig drives - Firewire 800
4 x 8 gig P2 cards
2 x Powerbooks G4 (NOT MACBOOK)
We fill up 2 8 gig cards and drop them off to our media loader who used P2 genie to offoad the raw files to the drive and then import from the Lacie into final cut. Once in final cut he checks the files and has the cards ready for us when we come back after shooting the other 2 8 gig cards. The the process starts all over again.
I think there is something to be said about the pcmcia transfer instead of the USB or firewire tranfer from the P2 store or direct from the camera. When I have done some test footage direct from the camrea via firewire I have had the "some clips had errors" message. Going from PCMCIA P2 direct to Lacie via firewire 800 has been PRETTY MONEY! The only issues we have had to date is the P2 genie software will sometimes lock up the powerbook causing us to reboot and then we are off and importing again.
One thing we should all remember when shooting P2 for our clients. They are not going to be paying us to capture/log all the footage from tape.......so since that cost is gone we are adding a Media Assistant to all of our P2 shoots.
At the end of our shoots we take the media from our lacie and move it to our Apple Raids and start cutting. Always keep multiple backups. We have a pelican case that had 2TB of lacie drives in it as part of our kit.
Food for thought. Hope this helps.
Rember to always USE A MAC and FCP!
Scott
Hi Scott!
I guess my current workflow will remain the same as before, only with modifications; I will continue to use p2 store (allows me not to have to have a media assistant, which sometimes is preferable) and then dump stuff using Mac powerbook g4 (even though if I had to do over again I might have gotten a PC, at least for offloading off the p2 store) using p2 genie for mac. Until Anders is done with v2.0 or 1.99, that has some sort of verification mode, I will be relegated to then checking my work with p2 log (basically playing the first few seconds of each clip) to make sure the clips actually made it or just disappeared into the ether somewhere out of the p2 store and into the drive.
So to reiterate my main changes are 1) Make sure all the partitions on the p2 store mount on the desktop (fairly easy since I would do this myself anyway) 2) play a bit of each clip using p2 log to make sure data files made the transition to the drive. I like p2 log because I can play the clips w/out importing into FCP so checking only takes 20 minutes max instead of say an hour and a half.
Also- again I would like to say I feel p2 card to p2store- bombproof enough to my liking. got absolutely no issues as far as that goes, but boy WOULD I LOVE SOME SORT OF VERIFICATION WHEN I COPY OFF OF IT TO A DRIVE! I get it on the p2 store, lets me sleep at night, and I have actually tried to introduce errors into the p2 store and couldn't. it's the last copy step that I feel left out in the cold. the P2 log is a workaround that I would rather not HAVE to use. at the moment I am okay with copy errors (although I have no idea why such things should happen) AS LONG AS I AM ALERTED TO THEM. The biggest problem with all of the workflows is the deleting of clips before they are confirmed working on their new location. My understanding is p2 genie has a crude form of verification- it checks file sizes, but that still doesn't save you from corruption. ANyway I have calmed down some and still like the p2 stores, but it really feels like I have a boat but no dock yet to tie up to, so to speak.
I guess my current workflow will remain the same as before, only with modifications; I will continue to use p2 store (allows me not to have to have a media assistant, which sometimes is preferable) and then dump stuff using Mac powerbook g4 (even though if I had to do over again I might have gotten a PC, at least for offloading off the p2 store) using p2 genie for mac. Until Anders is done with v2.0 or 1.99, that has some sort of verification mode, I will be relegated to then checking my work with p2 log (basically playing the first few seconds of each clip) to make sure the clips actually made it or just disappeared into the ether somewhere out of the p2 store and into the drive.
So to reiterate my main changes are 1) Make sure all the partitions on the p2 store mount on the desktop (fairly easy since I would do this myself anyway) 2) play a bit of each clip using p2 log to make sure data files made the transition to the drive. I like p2 log because I can play the clips w/out importing into FCP so checking only takes 20 minutes max instead of say an hour and a half.
Also- again I would like to say I feel p2 card to p2store- bombproof enough to my liking. got absolutely no issues as far as that goes, but boy WOULD I LOVE SOME SORT OF VERIFICATION WHEN I COPY OFF OF IT TO A DRIVE! I get it on the p2 store, lets me sleep at night, and I have actually tried to introduce errors into the p2 store and couldn't. it's the last copy step that I feel left out in the cold. the P2 log is a workaround that I would rather not HAVE to use. at the moment I am okay with copy errors (although I have no idea why such things should happen) AS LONG AS I AM ALERTED TO THEM. The biggest problem with all of the workflows is the deleting of clips before they are confirmed working on their new location. My understanding is p2 genie has a crude form of verification- it checks file sizes, but that still doesn't save you from corruption. ANyway I have calmed down some and still like the p2 stores, but it really feels like I have a boat but no dock yet to tie up to, so to speak.
kenn michael
Well-known member
Haven't had any clip corruption, but I've lost a couple cards worth of footage due to the P2 Store not mounting all of its partitions as well. Very scary stuff. I have to start keeping camera/P2 card logs on everything I put into the store.