Canon Unveils New Prosumer HDV Line: XH G1 and XH A1

Again, all very good points Barry and I too am obviously interested in progress.

My very simple assertion is that good HD is good HD no matter what format it was recorded to.

I too have my minor reservations about long GOP and all, but at the end of the day I looked at what the Canon HDV image was as a baseline and judged that it is definitely good enough.

I'm excited to see what happens with AVC HD and I think it would be super cool for the DVX's low cost HD successor to move towards this. Universal compatibility is another plus when that happens, but in the here and now I don't think HDV is that much of a problem.
 
Elton said:
If 24F is a single field, it's the most ridiculously high res single 1080 field I've ever seen.
Click to expand...
Not me saying it's a single field, it's Adam saying that. Which is the same thing he said about CineFrame 30, and on his wobbling resolution test he got around 540 lines out of both modes.

I believe there's some kind of synthetic extra field taken from the (likely) 48i and stitched/interpolated back together.
Click to expand...
I agree, I think that's what the Digic II processor is doing.

It might be that the extra horizontal res of the H1' CCD vs. the Z1's may be helping the image in perceived res
Click to expand...
I agree here too.
 
Barry,
Thank you for the big picture overview and for discussing all the related issues in your last few posts. It is very useful to have the situation explained in all its dimensions, so as to make a choice. Thank you also for the examples and explanations in your posts.

Earlier, another person whom I quoted in a similar post, asked about HDV concerns and you have answered them very well with facts, examples, analogies, opinions and experience.
With much appreciation and thanks,
Stuart
www.vineyardvideo.com
 
when Barry? When? Can we maybe see a DVX100 type camera with AVC-HD or a Z1 with it this year? Or are we talking years?
 
Zim said:
when Barry? When? Can we maybe see a DVX100 type camera with AVC-HD or a Z1 with it this year? Or are we talking years?
Click to expand...
Well, David has a point -- if I knew anything I couldn't say it. So take this as speculation.

When HDV was announced, it was 9/2003. It was 10/2004 before the first product bearing the HDV logo was on the market, the Sony FX1.

However, within a few weeks of making the AVC-HD announcement, Sony also announced its first AVC-HD models. Unfortunately for indie moviemakers, they're little 1080i-only consumer models.

But, there's also the whole thing of "is the FX1 discontinued or not?" And if so, will its replacement be HDV, or AVC-HD? Given that the new Canons look to have pushed HDV pretty far, and that Sony's said that they think AVC-HD is the format for HD for the future, it seems only logical that any proposed FX2 will be an AVC-HD model. And if the FX2 is AVC-HD, is there any possibility the Z2 (eventual replacement for the Z1) would be tape-based? I'd say no chance. And, come on -- surely they've learned by now that we want 24p, right? Surely? And AVC-HD 1080 does provide for 1080/24p, so... cross your fingers that Sony actually delivers this time. But hedge your bet, because their track record on 24p is dismal.

So, it seems to me that we've probably seen the last HDV model introduced by Sony. I think the HC3 will probably prove to be the end of the line for Sony HDV.

Canon's clearly not done yet, but Canon alone can't set the agenda, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if the A1 and G1 were the last of Canon's HDV offerings. And JVC was talking about new models too (HD200 & HD250), although I don't know if they're in the financial shape they'd need to be in to produce them, and frankly I think the G1 and A1 pretty much ate JVC's HD200/HD250 lunch, so whether there'll be more JVC HDV models remains to be seen. How can a $12,000 JVC HD250 (with cheap lens) stand against a $8000 Canon G1, when the whole point of the 250 was adding HD-SDI output?However, JVC is not going to be producing AVC-HD product, so I don't know where that leaves JVC. Not on solid ground, that's for sure, if you read their annual report and follow the news.

As for Panasonic, the DVC30 and DVC60 have been around for quite a while, I wouldn't be surprised if they got replaced with AVC-HD models. And the 100B has been on the market for close to a year, almost four years from the original 100 being released... it seems glaringly obvious that we're due for some real "action" from the Panasonic side of things.

But the big question is: who's going to produce the camera the indie filmmakers WANT that uses that format? It'd have to be comparable to the A1, or the A1 will "win" by default. Will Sony do it? Unlikely, as they seem to have a borderline pathological aversion to 24p. Will Canon do it? In HDV, apparently, but not AVC-HD as there's been no announcement of them taking out an AVC-HD license. Will Panasonic do it? I think an HVX100 (a DVX with HD chips and AVC-HD format) would be killer, but... well, we'll see what happens.

Christmas is a long, long way away right now, and I would be quite surprised if we don't see some announcements from both Sony (on the FX2 front) and Panasonic about what their end-of-year plans are. It only seems reasonable that both companies would want their new product on store shelves for the holiday buying season. But, it would be uncharacteristically quick to do so when one considers the timing between the HDV announcement and the release of the first HDV product, so...
 
Last edited:
Barry_Green said:
And JVC was talking about new models too (HD200 & HD250), although I don't know if they're in the financial shape they'd need to be in to produce them, and frankly I think the G1 and A1 pretty much ate JVC's HD200/HD250 lunch, so whether there'll be more JVC HDV models remains to be seen. How can a $12,000 JVC HD250 (with cheap lens) stand against a $8000 Canon G1, when the whole point of the 250 was adding HD-SDI output?
Click to expand...

Some JVC sales may be loss to the Canons, but there will always be room for a shoulder mounted camera and the JVCs are the only truly shoulder mounted 1/3" HD camera. Also, if I was operating in a studio with HD-SDI, I would want a real ENG lens with real, standard rear lens controls. You can't get that with the A1/G1. I think the JVCs will do just fine with smaller market TV stations moving to HD, ENG stringers, etc. The market is much bigger than just indie filmmakers.

As for JVC's financial position, yes they have had several difficult years but the problems are mainly with their consumer products. You can find all of the financial results for JVC at their investor relations site. Read the President's message. He is very frank about the difficulties they have had.

http://www.jvc.co.jp/english/company/ir/index.html

Here's the Cliff Notes version:

Their problems were mainly with the consumer products division. Sales were down due to quality problems with DVD recorders and late product introductions. Fierce competition with digital products also eroded prices and profit margins.

The professional products division was actually pretty stable, although not really a standout. Sales were down slightly about 1% but profits were actually up. Professional products only account for 8% of the JVC's consolidated sales (compared to 74% for consumer products).

JVC is a pretty small player. JVC's entire sales revenue only makes up 7% of its parent company, Matsushi*a's (Panasonic) consolidated yearly sales. Panasonic AVC Networks (the divisions that make all the consumer and professional A/V electronics) make up 39% of Matsushi*a sales. That division actually lost money in 2002 but quickly recovered after that.
 
thanks Barry maybe Sony or pansonic will try and still some of Canons thunder before they release it in October.
 
I think that's what we all hope for all the time. Stolen thunder = better products for the end user! Canon's certainly stirred the pot, let's see what else shows up!
 
That's what I'm hoping for. Only way you can really steal Canon's currently escalating thunder is to throw a Panny or Sony cam out at the same price that boasts AVC-HD.

Either way, I win.
 
Barry_Green said:
I think the language barrier is kicking in here, so I can only guess at what you're asking.

Are you asking why we eviscerated CineFrame 24, but not 24F? And what about Sony's CineFrame 30 vs. Canon's 30F?

CineFrame 24 is a horrible abomination, a bogus hack to try to vaguely sort of emulate what film looks like, and it fails miserably at it.

CineFrame 25 and CineFrame 30 are much better, they're simple field-doubling de-interlacing that give proper motion cadence.

Canon's 24F and 30F appear to be the same thing. 30F appears to be 60i but only one field, 25F is the same thing from the PAL 50Hz unit. And 24F appears to be the same thing, just slowed down a bit. According to Adam's tests he thinks 24F is basically a single field.

So it's lower res, but it's proper motion cadence. CineFrame 24 on the Sony is not only lower res (and much lower res than 24F) but it's variable resolution depending on which frame (out of the five-frame cadence) you're looking at, and on top of that it's the wrong motion signature anyway. So we fairly universally despise CineFrame 24, whereas 24F is nowhere near as disliked. 24F is basically like CineFrame 25 and CineFrame 30, which is: proper motion signature, just lower resolution.
Click to expand...
Right though I would speak more to 25f vs. CF25 but as Barlow said, maybe the higher res of the CCD has made the difference. All the people are testifying the high quality of their progressive mode. But we cannot say the same regarding the interlaced Sony. And why are they? It's only a question of business. As I posted before Canon doesn't have any high-end to protect unless 1/3" CCD camcorders. I would go always with Canon in any 1/3" purchase. And the higher results of their cameras are speaking for themselves and reasonably.
 
Barry_Green said:
I think that's what we all hope for all the time. Stolen thunder = better products for the end user! Canon's certainly stirred the pot, let's see what else shows up!
Click to expand...

I now have the money top buy something and since the A1 is not due out till October I can wait and see if something else shows up. Not that big of a hurry at the moment. But come October,,,,,,
 
Barry_Green said:
As far as an HVX competitor? Naw. 4:2:0 HDV vs. 4:2:2 DVCPRO-HD, 1080/24F vs. 1080/24P, 1080/30F vs. 1080/30P, no 720p at all, no variable frame rates, no DVCPRO50, no Cinelike-D and Cinelike-V, and back to a tape-based workflow? No thanks on that aspect.

Well done on Canon's part though. I think these look pretty solid, and they should totally eat the FX1's and Z1's lunches.
Click to expand...

Barry, I love you but I'm going to disagree. If the image is what it says this camera will get my money. I loved Sony's design but felt they crapped on the consumer considering they knew we wanted 24p or a "reasonable" facesmile but chose to not to give it to us simply because. I considered buying it because I still want to do a Horror film with 1080i night scenes and 24p day scenes.

I love Panasonic always but between the P2 and the space concerns I don't see the HVX in my immediate future, at least not anymore. This is what I've been waiting for. 1080i and 24p HDV in one cam at a reasonable price point. At $4000 I know what I want for Christmas. I have a 400 gig storage drive. That's enough for all my HDV footage. And I can get that MacBook and plus Final Cut Express and this all together and then I'm ready to move.

I do agree $7000 for a stripped down XL-H1 isn't the way to go but for $5000 I would by the other cam. But for $4000 I'm on it. I do find it kind of cool the way they're attacking Sony. Think about it, they've never come out with multiple GL cams at once. They did everything Sony did with the FX/Z1U. If they unleash a 1 CMOS chip camera with pro features we'll know who they're gunning for.

Check out the look of the camera. This is Sony design with Canon function. Plus I do think they want the Panasonic market and people who have concerns about space and P2 will gravitate to this camera and that's all to it. I do hope this cam rips the FX1 a new one. If Sony fires back with true 24p then the decision will truely be tough. For now I want this!!! By the way, anyone notice what they did? They mixed the DVX/HVX and Sony FX body designs. (I'm sure someone's pointed that out).

-Nate
 
Last edited:
Now that I really think about it Canon buys CCDs from Sony so I guess they're not really gunning for them are they?

-Nate
 
A pocket cam... mmm

But it deserves its own thread.

Good find Rafa! (Rafael?)

EDIT

As you can see dear mods, when you're sleeping the european members take care of dvxuser.com (rocks!) -- the best web community out there.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top