Keep video and film seperate please!

David Newman said:
But technically bayer center cropping is not quite 4:4:4, as bayer image doesn't have every primary per photo-site. Although you can extract a surprising amount of detail, but it will not quite reach the level of a Viper.
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Thanks for putting meat on the bones of my concern, David.
 
From the ASC article on Collateral:

The production began shooting with a pair of Vipers, but Cameron testifies that “by the end of the first day, we switched to two F900s as our main cameras.”

Don't know if it's true but anyway thought I'd share.
 
Interesting contradictions. Especially when one is made by the director himself.

"The Viper isn't the only camera Mann is using to shoot the movie, which he describes as a "multimedia" effort. He's using the Sony CineAlta high-definition camera, as well as shooting film, but of the roughly 80% of the finished film Mann estimates he's captured digitally, about 80% originated from the Viper."

Go figure.

According to the American Cinematographer article, Cameron was replaced by Dion Bebe three weeks into the 12 week [Collateral] production. A reasonable assumption is that Bebe used the Viper more when he took over the DoP duties.
 
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That does seem like a reasonable assumption. As hands-on as Mann seems to be, I can't imagine that he doesn't know what camera he's using.

I have to say, I love what he's trying to do regarding low-light shooting, night-time ambiance, etc.
 
Greg, Good articel gives me more insight. I was going off what Mann had said, in the making of Collateral DVD. Not the best source for information
 
regards the ASC article, the more you read the whole article the more they seem to use the viper.

Heres a part i found VERY INTERESTING given that the viper is a 2/3rd lens. Quote:
At the filmmakers’ request, Thomson also added weight to the back of the Viper to make it more balanced for handheld operation; the camera was initially very difficult to handhold without the added ballast of a magazine hanging off the back of the camera. “Our A-camera operator, Gary Jay, an amazing operator who has worked with Michael for many years, and our B-camera operator, Chris Haarhoff, were really able to work these cameras to their advantage,” says Beebe. “An odd byproduct of the HD world, especially with so much handheld operation, was that our focus pullers, John Grillo and Glen Brown, ended up working primarily via remote focus, sitting at the monitor. The HD monitors are so crisp and sharp that the best way to judge critical focus is simply to watch the monitor.
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With the Red camera and using s35mm lenses handheld will be much more difficult. Red with 2/3rd lenses (going by the comments above) might also be difficult. Is this something we should be worried about:(

PS I am saying this only in the context of what i have read up so far here and elsewhere.

Michael
 
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I don't think it will be that hard, one trade off of having less DOF is that it's easier to see when thing are really in focus. As long as your monitor is up to the challenge.
 
mike the beginner said:
With the Red camera and using s35mm lenses handheld will be much more difficult. Red with 2/3rd lenses (going by the comments above) might also be difficult. Is this something we should be worried about:(
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Shoulder operation: Use an ajdustable shoulder mount. Many already exist, plus I would hazzard a guess that RED will produce one. Slide camera forward or backward on the mount to center balance for each different lens/accessory setup.

Hand held: Use RED 3 Handle system with top handle forward to get balance point over the lens, or if using RED One Cage, use sliding or clamp-on counter weights on rails to help balance the load.

Gibby
RED #8
www.cut4.tv
www.4umat.com
 
For anyone interested, or who's followed this thread, there was a Very Interesting article on the making of Miami Vice in "American Cinematographer" magazine.

Apparently "Vice" used Vipers, Sony Cinelalta T950 and F900's. I bought the mag just to see what the issues are for workflow concerning high end digital acquisition (not that i'll be doing a $125 million feature tomorrow, but what else can you compare narrative feature blow up to film RED too?)

The article hits on dynamic range, need for a massive amount of light (the way they were shooting) and some tips and techniques. I'll try to find a link :beer:



REd # wish I was higher
 
Well, since G is away, and i'm bored (i thought i'd quote the article a bit to get feedback ).

Here's some quotes from the "American Cinematographer" article I found interesting :

"The HD cameras have less latitude in the highlights than film, and that was the tricky part to negotiate", he (Beebe) continues."We had to find a daylight look that was bold and interesting but would ultimately work to protect our highlights. Summer in Miami is a variety of extremely bright sun, haze and heavy clouds - very tricky exposure-wise. The most challenging situations were when we were shooting day interiors against very bright exteriors. We had one location looking out onto Biscayne Bay with huge floor to ceiling windows and open doors. We had set a mandate with our exposure that we worked from the background forward. This meant exposing for low ambient light for our night work and lighting to stop, or, in this situation, exposing for our highlights then bringing the interior up to meet the exposure for the interior. When possible, I tried to work within a 1-2 stop latitude between the highlights outside and the key light on the actors. With film, I could easily have made that with a 3-4 stop latitude, but with digital cameras, 2 was the most I would do, and for our look was the best appproach."

That required a great deal of light; lighting actors to a T22 to match exterior highlights is no small feat. For the Biscayne Bay location Beebe positioned three 18K HMI's about 12' from the actors to get them within a stop of exterior highlights.
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So, is a 1-2 stop difference the norm for high end digital ? I know their shooting an extreme - but I was wonderin '. Obviously, you have to protect your highlights with digital.
We actually ended up creating an aluminum casing for the Vipers, which also stood out to protect the body and make them more robust We knew these cameras were going to be runnning around in a lot of exteriors, heat and humidity, on boats, in cars and in jets.
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This makes RED look pretty good. I suppose the solid fabrication body and cage would lend itself to durability. Along with third party add ons (cage modifications?) of course.


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:beer:

RED # wish I was higher
 
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Just as on "Collateral", the Viper was set to Videostream (RGB) mode so such adjustemnts could be made on set. In the uncompressed mode, no internal signal processing is possible, because the RAW data from the three CCD's is transmitted directly to the recording device; in Videostream mode, the cameras full processing menu is available to manipulate the image. The output is 4:4:4 dual stream HD-SDI 22 bit RGB data. This data is then recorde to Sony HDCAM SR SRW-1 decks at 4:1 compression.
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I also find it intersting, that Beebe used waveform monitors, 27" HD monitors and a custom look up table (LUT's) to emulate the look of the film print (back at the video village). Some of the topics and ideas, we've been talking about here, and how to get the same result on a lower budget. It's interesting that Mann sacrificed the RAW output for the ability to use the full processing menu on set. Another topic about RED (which format will you choose ? )

Although a lot of work went into refining a fiber optic tether for the Vipers, "we had varying succcess with the fiber lines and had to resort to the larger copper lines, quite a few times", says Beebe.
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I like RED's solutions better.

" Vice" also used the T950 for scenes like the race boat, where they separated the imaging system , which can be separated from the body for up to 50 meters. That kinda' sounds like Gibby's idea about underwater photography with RED. :beer:

Throughout the shoot, Beebe worked almost exclusively with the new Carl Zeiss 6-24mm Digizoom, even though he carried a set of Digiprimes. "We pretty much lived on the Digizoom, and it was a great tool for us. Michael really likes to utilize the zoom for specific emphasis, especially with handheld cameras".
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I noticed that watching the movie (but only because I was assessing the tech). He uses it amazingly, creating a sense of dynamism, subtlely. How much does the Zeiss go for ? (kidding). He also used 435's and 235's for highspeed and underwater work. (I don't remember any underwater work, unless you count the shower haha)

One more quote :

"Building on our experiences from "Collateral", we set some pretty strict guidelines as to how to expose, especially faces, and what percentages were acceptable to avoid ddiigital noise", he continues. "On night exteriors, I tried to keep the exposure values at around 30 or 40 percent, never letting them fall below 20 percent and kept the gain at +3db most of the time, rarely going tp +6 db. It's tricky, because you can look at the monitor and think the exposure looks great, and when you check the exposure values on the waveform you find it's too low. When it's too low, you get noise, and often you can't see the noise on the monitors. The only way to know for sure is to check the image on a large screen "
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.Ok, buy digital projector to screen dailies - check !
Don't freak out if you are seeing an aesthetic image that will be diffrerent (in post) and on the big screen ? - check !

:beer: :beer: :beer:

Whew, lots to think about, prepare for.
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RED # wish I was higher
 
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Proteus said:
Thanks for all of this D_and_G, very interesting... food for thought!
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Ha. No problem..Glad someone got something out of it.


:beer:

REd # wish I was higher
 
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