Canon Unveils New Prosumer HDV Line: XH G1 and XH A1

[Barry_Green]

I think with the advent of the XH-A1, both the DVX and XL2's days are numbered.

Supposing that the XH-A1 holds up (and I don't doubt that it will), I think there's a lot more numbered-day products out there. The Sony Z1, for example -- why would someone pay $2,000 more for a Z1? The XH A1 is $3999 MSRP, the Z1 is $5946, and the A1 does (theoretically) more than the Z1 does and can be upgraded to offer the same NTSC/PAL switchability. And the FX1? Pshaw. Who would buy an FX1 ($3699) instead of an XH A1 ($3999)? The XLRs alone are worth the price difference, not to mention the superior 24F instead of CF24 and the longer lens. I think the FX1 and Z1 have met their match, and they both lost.

What I'm really, really curious about is the impact that the G1 will have on JVC. JVC was planning on their HD250, $9000 (without lens, figure around $12,000 with a halfway decent lens). The HD250 's big deal was that it was going to have HD-SDI with embedded TC and embedded audio, something the XLH1 didn't do. But now the G1 offers that, for $7,000 including lens. Now, granted, the JVC can interchange its lens, but -- so? With a 20x zoom that goes from 4.5 to 90mm, do you really, really NEED to interchange the lens? And would you pay $5,000 more for that capability? Read JVC's annual report, just released yesterday -- they've really got their backs up against the wall, and frankly I think Canon just gamed them out of their HD200/HD250 product line before they even hit the shelves. I do not think JVC can be happy about this.

Canon has made a bold move here. Competition is indeed good for the consumer, and it will be most interesting to see how the manufacturers respond. I think the FX1, Z1, HD200, HD250, XL2, PD170, VX2100, and the DVX, will all have some explaining to do when the XH A1 hits the store shelves.

Of course, this is just one move in the grand chess game between these manufacturers. Imagine if Panasonic put out an AVC-HD version of the DVX; that might change a lot of people's perceptions quite quickly. Sony's rumored to be introducing an FX2 soon -- will they respond in kind? Or will they give us another interlaced-only product that still doesn't do what we (the membership of DVXUser.com) want? I'm betting on the latter, but Sony has made some amazing products in the past and they could do it again. Congrats to Canon for producing a product that seems quite in tune with what users wanted. Now I just hope hope hope that the lens controls are usable and not the famous "wet cabbage" system!

 

[rawfa]

All I have to say is that this is exactly what the market needed to spice up the competition and actualy FORCE the other brands to come up with the products that can compete with these new cameras (and beat them). It would be good to see sony fall flat on it's face because of their own stuborness. As for Panasonic, they're into the habit of waiting until all the other brands come up with their stuff so that they can check out everything these cameras have, to make theirs better. I think everybody here is waiting for a AVC-HD DVX...but the question is...wouldn't that kill their golden boy, the regular DVX? Wouldn't that even still SOME of the HVXs' thunder?

 

[Jarred Land]

Really, then what was?

lol In Sync Blade was 1st. It was out before even the BETA of Vegas with DVX support was out.

 

[Elton]

Some great points.

What I'm really, really curious about is the impact that the G1 will have on JVC.

I've been thinking the same thing. Considering that the G1 is pretty much good to go for a small form (REALLY small form!) TV studio capable camera, whereas the JVC will need a lens. (it does have a CCU though, right?) And I think the lens is easily the biggest compromise with the JVC product. Although I like the "feel" of the little Fujinon, that thing breathes WAY worse than my XL 16x manual lens, which is actually sharper than the Fujinon too.

I think you're right; Canon may have pulled the rug out from under them. Krikey!

Canon has made a bold move here. Competition is indeed good for the consumer, and it will be most interesting to see how the manufacturers respond. I think the FX1, Z1, HD200, HD250, XL2, PD170, VX2100, and the DVX, will all have some explaining to do when the XH A1 hits the store shelves.

It may be the camera that really puts the nail in the coffin for SD DV filmmaking. I mean, no matter how much you may like the DVX look, it's still a 720x480 frame with a meager 4:1:1 color sampling which in reality is much worse for keying than even HDV.

The DVX got the ball rolling on low-to-no budget 24p, and many phenomenal works have been produced with it, but now it's time to move on from SD. The entry level price for good "affordable HD" has just been lowered dramatically.

Imagine if Panasonic put out an AVC-HD version of the DVX; that might change a lot of people's perceptions quite quickly.

True, true...but HDV already has an established support system of NLE's, whereas this AVC HD format may suffer a bit from new format inertia in the marketplace.

I think the XH-A1 may have signifigantly sped-up the developement cycle for these future offerings from Sony and Panasonic.

It'll be interesting to see how many FX1's, Z1's and DVX's show up on ebay in the coming months.

 

[rawfa]

It'll be interesting to see how many FX1's, Z1's and DVX's show up on ebay in the coming months.

My FX1 probably will hahaha rogar-BigGrin(DBG)

 

[Elton]

As for Panasonic, they're into the habit of waiting until all the other brands come up with their stuff so that they can check out everything these cameras have, to make theirs better.

Funny, that sounds a lot like Canon too. They're always late to the game but seem to consistently do something interesting.

I think everybody here is waiting for a AVC-HD DVX...but the question is...wouldn't that kill their golden boy, the regular DVX? Wouldn't that even still SOME of the HVXs' thunder?

What are the bit rates proposed for AVC HD? I have a sneaking suspicion that they will be lower than even HDV, but if the codec is actually intra-frame, no matter how modern it may be I believe it's going to need a higher bit rate than MPEG2 to look at least as good.

If this XH-A1 sells like hot cakes could it lead to a signifigant price drop for the HVX?

The plot thickens...

 

[ShannonRawls]

lol In Sync Blade was 1st. It was out before even the BETA of Vegas with DVX support was out.

*cringe*
DAYUM!!! I forgot about that program!!! I'm totally wrong on that one. Aight.....you got me! *smile*

 

[hatsoff2halford]

so does everyone think it would be smart to sell off your DVX's? Is DV dying?

 

[sodotoguwangus]

Imagine if Panasonic put out an AVC-HD version of the DVX; that might change a lot of people's perceptions quite quickly.

What is AVC-HD? A new format? What cameras are using this, can someone please explain?

 

[spencer]

I really feel goofy right now--as great a camera the DVX is, literally three months after I buy it an affordable good image camera with HD comes on.

I knew this was going to happen.

 

[spencer]

What is AVC-HD? A new format? What cameras are using this, can someone please explain?

I think AVC-Hd is a new format that Sony and Panasonic are going to use. I believe it has something to do with Blu-Ray, and I think it's tapeless?

 

[hatsoff2halford]

Spencer, that's exactly how I feel. I just buy a used 100a for $2500 not even two months ago, and now this comes along. I'm wondering if selling is a good choice.

 

[spencer]

Don't get me wrong man, I loveeee the DVX, but it just seems like HD (be it HDV or not) with 24f seems like a good deal for the 4000 price tag. Even when Jarred and Barry are speaking of its merits, well, that piques my interest.

 

[David Jimerson]

Blade was definitely first. Had great timeline support of multimple formats, too. I was seriously considering it before I discovered the big V.

 

[David Jimerson]

will Veg 5 cut HDV?

Just curious. i have VEgas 5 and wanna drag my laptop to B&H and import some HDV. just to play

Cut, yes. Capture? That's more problematic.

 

[David Jimerson]

I really feel goofy right now--as great a camera the DVX is, literally three months after I buy it an affordable good image camera with HD comes on.

I knew this was going to happen.

You can't spend your life waiting for the next thing, because the next thing is always coming. Just go shoot.

 

[lacuna]

I think the FX1, Z1, HD200, HD250, XL2, PD170, VX2100, and the DVX, will all have some explaining to do when the XH A1 hits the store shelves.

Frankly, this is also going to hurt HVX sales. Sure, the HVX will have its diehard fans. But for those like myself who are not scared off by HDV, because we've seen it produce beautiful results quite flawlessly, these new cams look very attractive.

I was weighing up between the HVX and H1. The H1 unquestionably has higher res, and a crisper picture. It is also extremely tweakable. What put me off was the form factor - I don't like the balance, the size, the lack of LCD.

The new cameras address these issues plus they're cheaper.

HVX has P2 workflow (for better or for worse), but it's real claim to fame are the codec and variable frame rates.

Canon have proven with the H1 that their implementation of HDV holds up very well. I'd still go with DVCpro HD, but the difference is not major for many, including me.

But look what the HVX does not have:

20x lens with Iris ring (did anyone notice this, three rings on the lens!!!)
800x800 TV lines resolution (800x540 in frame mode)
Optional HDSDI, Timecode in/out, Genlock, 50i/60i switch
Cheap HD recording media

Canon's console software also looks very promising. And there's a custom Firestore on the way for these camera's too, so you don't have to rely on tape.

Panasonic will have to react to this - I predict an 'a' version of the HVX sooner rather than later. Anyway, it's all good!

 

[ecking]

Hey dudes--

It's not really a competition yeah? It really is another paintbrush.

For those of you who do not know, though:

24f, as nice as it is, is not supported by Final Cut and Vegas. I believe you can cut with Premiere after upgrades, and Canopus Edius slices 24f right out of the box.

That's another thing to consider with Canon's camera.

If I am incorrect, someone please correct me. That's one reason our company is looking at the purchase of HVX200's as opposed to the XL-H1's. Our editinng bays are Avid and Apple-centric.

( :mumble: Car... or A1? Car... or A1? )

Yeah 24f may not be the easiest to edit right now, but remember now there will we 3x as many 24f cameras on the market and if these sell well(which is a given) NLE companies will have no choice but to support it.

*I just hope in comes in a free FCP download instead of fcp 6 lol*

 

[Barry_Green]

but the question is...wouldn't that kill their golden boy, the regular DVX?

Here's the thing nobody seems to understand -- they don't care! They want to make the best product at the best price. If some other product (even in their own product line) can't compete, then too bad for that product. They've sold a lot of DVXs, and they'll continue to sell to those who need and want that product, but if you think that's going to hold them back from making a better product then you're in for a very big surprise.

And actually, that's what it seems like Canon has done as well. The XLH1 doesn't look all that compelling against the new ones anymore, does it? I'd wager a few people are upset that their XLH1's don't have embedded timecode and audio in the HD-SDI, but the cheaper G1 does. So? Better is better, and they made it better.

Should they have crippled the G1 so that H1 owners wouldn't be mad? That's Sony thinking, sure, but that's not how Panasonic and Canon are operating anymore. It's a different world.

Wouldn't that even still SOME of the HVXs' thunder?

Maybe for the low-cost crowd who are stretching to get into an HVX, but not for the core HVX buyer. HVX is multiple-format variable-frame-rate with frame-discrete compression. AVC-HD is long-GOP. That right there would rule it out for most higher-end use. Different products for different market segments.

 

[Barry_Green]

What is AVC-HD? A new format? What cameras are using this, can someone please explain?

AVC-HD is a new high-def format that frankly beats HDV in nearly every category. Probably the most interesting aspect of AVC-HD is that it's sponsored by both Sony and Panasonic. In the marketplace Sony and Panasonic combine to account for something like 80% of all camcorders sold, with all the rest of the companies (JVC, Canon, Sanyo, Sharp, Samsung, etc) all scrambling for a piece of that last 20%. So to have both behemoths on the same page is a significant development.

AVC-HD is based on the hottest codec going, H.264/AVC. It's not based on old outdated MPEG-2, it's the newest & best. H.264 is another name for AVC (which is short for Advanced Video Coding). Sony's announced some cheapy consumer cameras based on AVC-HD already, one that records to a mini-DVD and one that records onto its own hard disk. Panasonic's announced that they'll have AVC-HD cameras that record to SD cards, and they're aggressively pursuing licensing the format to the other manufacturers.

AVC-HD is the next generation of formats that will (I boldly predict) obsolete MPEG-2 HDV entirely. It's got a couple of things in common with HDV, in that it's also a long-GOP codec and it's also 4:2:0. But after that, it's all better:

AVC is full-raster 1920x1080 recording, HDV is 1440x1080

AVC supports 24p natively, from the get-go. It's 1080/60i, 1080/24p, 720/60p and 720/24p all in one cross-compatible format (unlike HDV)

AVC is at least twice to 2.5 times as efficient as MPEG-2 at the same bandwidth, so 18 megabits of AVC-HD should deliver quality akin to 36 to 45 megabits of MPEG-2! That puts it potentially up there with XDCAM-HD. Should be far more resilient against compression artifacts than HDV.

AVC audio is uncompressed at up to 7.1 channels, vs. HDV's two channels of compressed MPEG-1 layer II audio.

Also, AVC audio can be recorded in Dolby Digital AC-3 mode! Try that with HDV's two compressed channels, or four super-compressed 192kbit channels.

HDV is an inherently incompatible format, JVC footage won't play in Canon gear, Canon footage won't play in JVC gear, Sony footage won't play in JVC, Canon's 24F and 30F won't play in Sony or JVC, JVC 24p footage won't play in Sony at all, and JVC 30p footage can be displayed but not digitized by Sony gear. Contrast all that with AVC-HD, which is one compatible standard, any AVC-HD equipment will play any AVC-HD footage (provided it's on the same media of course!)

The AVC-HD train is yet to get really rolling, but once it does HDV will disappear. AVC-HD is better in every possible way except for a couple, and in those two ways (long-GOP and 4:2:0) it's equal.

Frankly the only doubt about AVC-HD is: will the manufacturers produce a camcorder worthy of the format? The currently-announced Sony models most decidedly don't live up to the format's potential. But a high-def DVX running AVC-HD certainly would.

That's why I say, it's surprising Canon put out this product as HDV at this time. Had they made it AVC-HD it would be an amazingly bold move and could have seized the title of being "the new DVX". As it is, it remains to be seen how much "legs" HDV will have once AVC-HD hits in force. I think Canon may have breathed some life into HDV here.

Then again, it's a long way until October/November, and anything can happen between now and then. Politicians find that out all the time.