Noise in Lock Downed Footage of Pine Trees

NOTE: When I did my noise test, I shot every shot in 1080 and 720. I did not see a big difference in noise (in fact I saw no difference). Perhaps I would if the image was projected?

On a 50 in HD screen 720 vs 1080 didn't make a big difference (noise or resolution). If the resolution is below or around 720 to begin with, why would it change between modes? Am I missing something?
 
<<<I see the noise straight out of the camera AND I see it imported from P2 in Final Cut Pro HD.>>>

Do you see noise live to the HD monitor from the HVX?

If you record that live scene to P2, and then playback the same shot from P2 to the same monitor, do they look the same?

Forget about FCP at the moment, lets just talk about live HVX signal to HD monitor vs P2 playback of the same shot to the same monitor of the same scene...

The P2 playback should pretty much look the same as the live. Let us know...

Pappas
 
I've said this before (and apparently, I'll say it again and again), but your in-camera settings make all the difference in the world. This is a camera that requires some finesse and know-how. F5 (or F4, or F6, etc...) is not going to give you the best picture in all situations. I can set up my camera in my familly room, and by adjusting the settings (gamma, master ped, exposure, etc...) end up with a shot that looks fantastic, and a shot that looks like crap. You have to learn the camera and how to set it up.

And, for the record, I have not seen any major difference in "noise" between 720 and 1080. But that's just me.
 
A thread I started a while ago on this... Here is a test someone did to confirm what I was saying. The Macroblocks are smaller in 1080P. That is just one reason why it's better.

Here is the thread:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=429216&postcount=102

The page: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=45609&page=11&highlight=PappasArts




thefilmaddict said:
NOTE: When I did my noise test, I shot every shot in 1080 and 720. I did not see a big difference in noise (in fact I saw no difference). Perhaps I would if the image was projected?

On a 50 in HD screen 720 vs 1080 didn't make a big difference (noise or resolution). If the resolution is below or around 720 to begin with, why would it change between modes? Am I missing something?
Click to expand...
 
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The few 1080p stuff I've seen tends to have less artifacts if not noise. To be fair, I really havn't noticed all that much noise from the camera in the first place, certainly no more than I've seen from the HD100. The Z1 has less noise that bost, perhaps the least amount of noise from the group, but it just looks like really sharp really clean video with awful colors and gamma (in my opinion).
 
<<<Interesting POV, Pappas. Everyone's hung up on Variable Frame rates, but if you say shooting 1080p seems to put out less noise, then maybe that's just the route to go. Shoot 720p when you get into slow-mo stuff.>>>>



Hi Kholi!
Exactly, 720P when you need slowmo or maybe for some other production reason. However for the biggest frame with the least macroblock artifacts- you must use 1080P on the HVX.

Look at the post I just made above with a link to a thread I started long ago. I thought I was finished with that discussion, however it's back again.

Here are the links

Here is the post:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=429216&postcount=102

The thread page:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=45609&page=11&highlight=PappasArts


Pappas
 
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Been gone all day, and just returned.

John: I understand what your posts meant now. We're cool.

The client asked for this shot. I didn't.

Settings: all automatic.

We were shooting some action shots for a college baseball game in the northwest. Sun shine day

The field was sunny to partly sunny during the time we shot on a tripod.

The field was surrounded by Pacific Northwest pine trees.

So we shot trees as we moved down to the ball field.

It surprised me that that there was so much noise in the trees.

As I stated earlier, we weren't shooting the trees, but creating a shot that moved from the trees to the ball field.

I can send about ten seconds to Mike, but I need to figure how I can send that with my IP.
 
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John_Hudson said:
Thanks Ullanta

I do not see any noise in these. Perhaps on one there may be a sleight something I need to strain too see ...

Nothing seems uncool here

-

I'm viewing on a Dell Flatscreen.
Click to expand...

Wow! That does surprise me... the image 3rd row from left, 3rd row down, blue background, you don't see noise?

Maybe this is the test image we're talking about... if some folks see noise there and some don't, then there's really a basic perceptual difference. Or at least some REALLY nice noise-canceling monitors.
 
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Ullanta,

I don't see the noise in your pics either, but really (and this goes for all examples presented thus far), it's a moot point as we are all viewing on different signal chains. I believe there is simply no way for all of us to see the same results due to this very fact.

For what it's worth,
Sam
 
PappasArts said:
<<<Interesting POV, Pappas. Everyone's hung up on Variable Frame rates, but if you say shooting 1080p seems to put out less noise, then maybe that's just the route to go. Shoot 720p when you get into slow-mo stuff.>>>>



Hi Kholi!
Exactly, 720P when you need slowmo or maybe for some other production reason. However for the biggest frame with the least macroblock artifacts- you must use 1080P on the HVX.

Look at the post I just made above with a link to a thread I started long ago. I thought I was finished with that discussion, however it's back again.

Here are the links

Here is the post:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=429216&postcount=102

The thread page:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=45609&page=11&highlight=PappasArts


Pappas
Click to expand...


You guys need to head over to these threads asap. There's a blatant comparison of the noise in 1080p and 720p, and it's true what Pappas says. It seems to fair a lot better in 1080 ccing. I'm reading those threads.

To those who are doing everything they can to help, thanks!

And, I just found out that I might be forced to shoot with an HVX over the DVX... so I'll be digging my way through every thread on the HVX to get the best settings possible. Thanks to everyone trying to help out the community.
 
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SamG, John:

Fascinating! It's not just hardware, it's software, too. In photoshop, for example, I see a lot LESS noise than in my browsers. But that one picture is still pretty noise no matter what I view it in/on.

Yeah, we really need to have this get-together with a bunch of equipment and people. But hearing what you say about that pic really makes me think.... ow, it hurts!
 
Yep, reliable signal chains are a key. It's the same with audio of course where someone listening to a song reports hearing no low end when listening on a pair of 10 dollar computer speakers and somebody else listening with a subwoofer reports hearing too much low end. Signal chain.

Honestly, I gave up all hope of achieving a "correct" or "universal" version of any image after seeing this:

http://www.ecinemasys.com/

How do you compete with that? I mean, I don't have 16,000 to drop on a monitor.
 
DavidBeier said:
The few 1080p stuff I've seen tends to have less artifacts if not noise. To be fair, I really havn't noticed all that much noise from the camera in the first place, certainly no more than I've seen from the HD100. The Z1 has less noise that bost, perhaps the least amount of noise from the group, but it just looks like really sharp really clean video with awful colors and gamma (in my opinion).
Click to expand...


That pretty much sums it up perfectly. I think I have...and we all have.. gotten a bit hypersensitive about the noise, and it's only there on a fraction of the shots that have some murky areas... and even then it's probably more expounded because I'm looking at it from about a foot away on the Dell...


The other really relaxing moment I had occured the other day when I was shooting with the JVC and I cheered at seeing the same kind of visible noise. I think that all of the cams in this category have it... and yes, the Sony really doesn't have the noise issue but again it doesn't come close in quality to the JVC or the HVX...


The other really interesting thing that people keep on bringing up is how their XL2 or the DVX looks cleaner... well I'll tell you what, when you downconvert even the noisest.. blah looking HD, the noise seems to vanish.. but what does is the color and the overall Mojo. I shot side by side with a DVX.. then downconverted to DV and gave it to the client and the HVX looked a lot... a lot.. a lot better and the lens was a major factor too, I believe....


I can understand the anguish too. I shot something the first day and it looked like my kids diaper... Really really bad, but some experience with the camera and a more discerning eye.. and it looks more like a clean diaper filled with gold. lol
 
Justyn said:
I shot something the first day and it looked like my kids diaper... Really really bad, but some experience with the camera and a more discerning eye.. and it looks more like a clean diaper filled with gold. lol
Click to expand...

This is the truest thing I've read in all these noise threads. I had the same experience. And now that I understand that David shot those trees on automatic, it's no wonder to me that he's not happy. You have to take control of this camera and learn to work it.

BTW, I haven't noticed any real difference in noise between 1080 and 720, but now you guys have really got me thinking. I'll be performing my own tests in the next few days. Thanks to everyone for all their thoughtful contributions. This really is a fantastic community of people.
 
Noise does not stand out as much on a static shot, unless it's extreme.
Throw up a 4 second clip of this footage.
 
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