Noise in Lock Downed Footage of Pine Trees

kwoff said:
David--I really don't think you have anything to apologize for. I also found John Hudson's post tactless and needlessly combative.
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Welcome to dvxuser !

Try not and be so hypersensitve. We're just talking cameras here.

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DavidS

I dig your frustration. I meant no offense nor was attmepting to be combative; just observing the grab.
 
David,

Can you give us a rundown of your menu settings? I see a little chalkiness and mist around the telephone lines, but we need more info. here. Otherwise, this is just a video Rorschach test and there's no way anything useful can come out of that.
 
I mean no offense David but as others have said the still you posted simply doesn't seem all that hot in the first place. I don't know if it's the JPEG compression or not but a general lack of contrast and the softness of the image makes it really hard to determine if there's much noise (and for the record, I don't see much).

What you put your settings on makes a huge difference in the image quality. I've seen so much stuff on the DVX that was noisy as hell and looked like cheap video. I've seen the same thing on the HVX. I'm sure you know all this as you're obviously a professional. I'm sure you know what I good shot should look like. We're just saying we'd like something better to evaluate the noise in.

I've seen a lot of badly shot stuff with noise but I haven't seen anything with really good lighting and exposure that shows much noise. If you have evidence that a great looking shot still comes out noisey I'd love to see it as it may affect whether or not some of us plunk down the cash for this camera.
 
Salatar can host this clip I'm sure of it.

Salatar are you out there?


David S. said:
Sorry John . . . I'm just a little frustrated.

I be happy to send a CD to anyone who wants to host it.

150 megabytes.

It's not like I'm going shoot a bunch of pine trees.
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What if your primary job with shooting requires that you shoot wooded landscapes like this? Are you saying that this is not the camera for that kind of work because you cannot properly light and fill all of the 20-30 IRE areas? I am being somewhat sarcastic but it is grossly oversimplifying it to say any camera will create noise on a shot like this. I have seen beautiful imagery of wooded areas just like this look great on the HD100. And it has mpg2 artifacts to contend with. And since I own the HVX and have shot a few things outside that had tress like this in the background and I have seen the creepy crawly noise in it, I can see what he is referring to even on a still.

Honestly.....why does everyone insist that the HVX does not show more noise in gradient areas vs. the other 1/3 HD cameras? I see it all the time with mine. Others do too. Just that fact that it is being revisited so often is a sign of a "real" issue. especially now that more and more people who actually own the camera and are using it are speaking out.

Still I would like to see a 5 or 6 second clip to verify that the noise is the same as mine.
 
its not a secret, in those gradients at that IRE it has problems. The noise doesnt bother most people though... but it is there. You can play with your knee and your ped to try and work around it however.
 
Cool. Not trying to be a jerk. But every camera has it's tradeoffs. That happens to be one of the HVX tradeoffs.

Thanks!

By the way....do you have any suggestions on settings for knee and pedestal to alleviate some this?
 
NOTE: There are other video clips on my site that show the HVX200 (in my opinion) looking very good. They were all shot outside (using the sun as a light source).

You guys should all be able to download and view the noise stills and you should also be able to watch the TDA music video (which mixes HVX with DVX footage).

Some people have trouble watching the other video clips (the slow mo snow footage and the beach footage), but they play fine on my G5 Mac using the latest version of Quicktime Player. Let me know if you have trouble watching those clips.
 
thefilmaddict said:
I'm not sure if I shared this with you guys before (I think that I have), but here are some stills that show the noise issue that I sometimes run into.

http://www.morrisbrothersfilms.net

Is this what you guys are talking about or is this unique to my camera?
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When trying to download these files in Safari, I get the message "Can't connect to host." In Firefox, I can't even get to the page. I get "connection was refused." Is there some magic trick to getting these files?
 
Thanks for thew stills filmaddict but what am I looking at ? I don't see the noise.

It must be a monitor issue ? What do you view your work on that enables you to see noise ?

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Filmaddict,
I was finally able to download the stills with Firefox. Thanks for posting them.

I must say, after viewing them, that I think people are being REALLY hypersensitive regarding the noise. Is there noise? Yes. I am not denying that. But there is no more noise than there was in my DVX (less, I think). And to see it, I have to get up close to my monitor and look for it. At normat viewing distance, I can still see it a bit in the darkest still, but I cannot see it at all on lighter still. And again, I still have to be looking for it.

I think people have unrealistic expectations. This is still a 1/3 inch chip.
 
I've viewed the footage on LCDs, projection LCDs and Plasma HDTVs. Some monitors show the noise less, but it's still there.

It's amazing that some of you guys don't see it at all. I must be going crazy. What monitors are you guys viewing the stills on?

Is there a way to make all of our clients only purchase monitors that show less noise? That sounds like the solution you are recommending.
 
John_Hudson said:
Thanks for thew stills filmaddict but what am I looking at ? I don't see the noise.

It must be a monitor issue ? What do you view your work on that enables you to see noise ?

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Hey John,

I like my pictures, but some of 'em are noisy. I'm just curious if you see noise: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=54920. Look at the ones with darkish blue backgrounds (the "boat", e.g.) and some of the ones of Electra in front of the multi-colored-light-rectangle-thing...
 
Thanks Ullanta

I do not see any noise in these. Perhaps on one there may be a sleight something I need to strain too see ...

Nothing seems uncool here

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I'm viewing on a Dell Flatscreen.
 
thefilmaddict is it noise or artifacts. See I have seen the HVX live component out to monitors. Noise is in the same ball bark of all the other HD cameras. However, is this something beyond that point?

Take that same shot you did, look at it live on the monitor, then playback from P2 that same position and see if it comes after the encoding process to DVCproHD vs the live signal. The Live signal should look just like the P2 playback if all is working right...

In my book noise is from the ccd's, artifacts are from the codecs. Which is it, or maybe a combo your seeing?

When I get the HVX for testing, the monitors that are going to be used are the Sony BVM-D24E1WU 24" HD monitors. Best that it gets in HD monitors!

Kaku told me that he had cleaner results going to his Kona card via HVX component card to DVCproHD vs his P2 card versions of the same shot same codec. Now this is what Kaku told me, I would like to see samples though for proof!

I wish we could put this noise/artifacts issue or no issue to permanent rest. I have not read walters article fully, however I didn't notice him having issues with major noise on either the HD100 or HVX. Like I said I haven't read it in full though.

Also 1080P from the HVX CC's better with nearly no blockies vs 720P when pushing the image. That's why I am surprised that 1080P is not ever pushed here as the only option for the best image possible. Maybe it's the fixation on ( which is 99% useless to me ) variable frame rates on the HVX that keeps people at 720P. Bigger frame is always better! Shoot 1080P on the HVX....

Pappas
 
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PappasArts said:
thefilmaddict is it noise or artifacts. See I have seen the HVX live component out to monitors. Noise is in the same ball bark of all the other HD cameras. However, is this something beyond that point?

Take that same shot you did, look at it live on the monitor, then playback from P2 that same position and see if it comes after the encoding process to DVCproHD vs the live signal. The Live signal should look just like the P2 playback if all is working right...

In my book noise is from the ccd's, artifacts are from the codecs. Which is it, or maybe a combo your seeing?

Pappas
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I see the noise straight out of the camera AND I see it imported from P2 in Final Cut Pro HD. I guess that means, as you see it, that it's caused by the camera and not the codec.

Don't get me wrong, I love this camera most of the time, it's just when I shoot some moody scenes (even with a ton of light on the subject), the noise in the shadows/gradients bugs me.

If everyone can agree that my stills look just like images from their cameras, then it's just the way the camera is and it's not because I have a bad or inferior camera.

Months ago I wanted to send my camera to Panasonic to see if it was not working properly, but I didn't because I enjoy shooting with it too much. That's why when I see noise posts I chime in. I'm just looking for answers.
 
PappasArts said:
thefilmaddict is it noise or artifacts. See I have seen the HVX live component out to monitors. Noise is in the same ball bark of all the other HD cameras. However, is this something beyond that point?

Take that same shot you did, look at it live on the monitor, then playback from P2 that same position and see if it comes after the encoding process to DVCproHD vs the live signal. The Live signal should look just like the P2 playback if all is working right...

In my book noise is from the ccd's, artifacts are from the codecs. Which is it, or maybe a combo your seeing?

When I get the HVX for testing, the monitors that are going to be used are the Sony BVM-D24E1WU 24" HD monitors. Best that it gets in HD monitors!

Kaku told me that he had cleaner results going to his Kona card via HVX component card to DVCproHD vs his P2 card versions of the same shot same codec. Now this is what Kaku told me, I would like to see samples though for proof!

I wish we could put this noise/artifacts issue or no issue to permanent rest. I have not read walters article fully, however I didn't notice him having issues with major noise on either the HD100 or HVX. Like I said I haven't read it in full though.

Also 1080P from the HVX CC's better with nearly no blockies vs 720P when pushing the image. That's why I am surprised that 1080P is not ever pushed here as the only option for the best image possible. Maybe it's the fixation on ( which is 99% useless to me ) variable frame rates on the HVX that keeps people at 720P. Bigger frame is always better! Shoot 1080P on the HVX....

Pappas
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Interesting POV, Pappas. Everyone's hung up on Variable Frame rates, but if you say shooting 1080p seems to put out less noise, then maybe that's just the route to go. Shoot 720p when you get into slow-mo stuff.
 
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