DSR450 vs. HVX200 Final Decision . . .

Deadzone said:
Do you know where I could go to actually look at DSR450 footage. Even at $12,000, I like to see what I am getting before I buy it.
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Yeah, so would I. I really would like to play with one for an afternoon before I buy, but I guess I'm resigned to playing with it a little at NAB as my only prepurchase due diligence (does Sony even bring "DSR-class" cameras to NAB?). At least I'll be able to compare it against the PDW510 and see if there is a sensitivity difference for sure. The only person I've seen with a DSR450 in L.A. is a shooter for the British network, ITN. I'll get his card next time I see him and ask if I can come by their offices sometime. If any sales operation in L.A. has one, I'll bet Videotape Products in Burbank has one. I'm pretty sure you'd be hard-pressed to find one at any rental house. Actually that's a good thought. I should check VTP out next week.
 
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filmmaker1977 said:
For sure NBC but you asked you deserve it
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Deserve what? A comparison between a 1/3"-CCD, 16:9, HD camera (the HD100) and a 1/4"-CCD, 270K-pixel, 4:3, SD camera (the GL-1)? I don't see any "point" to your argument. Thanks for your "insightful" contribution.
 
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NBCshooter said:
and follow your own river . . .
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by the way, isn't it the same? the best available workflow?.. SD - 2/3" or not - it isn't!
NBCshooter said:
Deserve what? A comparison between a 1/3"-CCD, 16:9, HD camera (the HD100) and a 1/4"-CCD, 270K-pixel, 4:3, SD camera (the GL-1)?
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do you see differences? seriously?..:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG) so what is it possible to add? :costumed-smiley-047 maybe like the resolution matters?..
NBCshooter said:
I see any "point" to your argument. Thanks for your "insightful" contribution.
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i'd like to but the only footage that I could see from yours it was the sci-fest and it isn't insightful..

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i mean to this point.. :)
 
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NBCshooter said:
Deserve what? A comparison between a 1/3"-CCD, 16:9, HD camera (the HD100) and a 1/4"-CCD, 270K-pixel, 4:3, SD camera (the GL-1)? I don't see any "point" to your argument. Thanks for your "insightful" contribution.
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I wouldn't be surprised if a high quality uprez of a high quality SD original looked very good. I read a story by a filmmaker that uprezzed his DVX100 movie with Algolith software and had very good results.

http://www.digitalproducer.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=38239

A quicky uprez in photoshop isn't going to cut it. If noise is your big issue then I think you'll be happy with the Sony.
 
joelnet said:
I wouldn't be surprised if a high quality uprez of a high quality SD original looked very good . . . If noise is your big issue then I think you'll be happy with the Sony.
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I wouldn't be surprised either . . .

Yup, I think that did it. I've been playing around with the HVX200 tonight that my friend loaned me. Yup, it's as noisy as I remembered from my previous experiences with it. It just doesn't get any cheaper than $12K for a whole 2/3" 24P widescreen camera package, the Sony DSR450 kit that I've been whining about for the last six months. I'm sold. Unless some manufacturer pulls off a technical and pricing miracle at NAB next week, I'm going to forgo the mid-range, shoulder-mount 1/2" and 2/3" HD products from Sony, Panasonic, and JVC being introduced this year. I didn't want to spend more than $20K anyway for the camera and glass, PLUS the extra money I'll have to spend on decent HD monitoring capability.

So, it's obsolete, out-dated, plain ole' SD technology for me this year. I'll keep my standard DV workflow, archive on plain, old fashioned DVCAM tape, and be able to "upgrade" my NLE from my super-crash-prone Adobe Premiere Pro and "move up" to the super-fun-to-use, super-crash-resistant Sony Vegas, and not have to worry about what NLE does or doesn't support whatever new exotic, bit-busting HD format I may have chosen instead.

Believe me, I just know I'm going to love that super-quiet 65dB signal-to-noise ratio, that nice, fat 2/3" kinda shallow depth-of-field, that nice, sharp 800-line image (850-lines in 4:3), and that extra stop or so of increased speed with that f/11 low-light sensitivity. Yup, no HD for me this year.
 
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joelnet said:
. . . I read a story by a filmmaker that uprezzed his DVX100 movie with Algolith software and had very good results.

http://www.digitalproducer.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=38239
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Wow! I just read the entire, three-part article, including the incredibly well-detailed technical sidebar, "The Secret Formula: Going from DV to HDSR Final Master," which generously detailed their very interesting post process. I HIGHLY recommend that sidebar for ANYONE even thinking about shooting SD and uprezzing later. Holy cow, what a great article--it's one of the best I've ever read, if not THE best for beginning independent filmmakers! In addition to the rich technical content, the article gives some extremely valuable insight into the business of distributing your independent feature. Thank you for posting that!
 
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Okay, I'm back from NAB2006, and I'm DONE! After looooooooooong review, I've decided on the DSR450 kit from B+H. Plus, B+H's NAB show special catalog included ANOTHER $500 off of the DSR450. So now, I'm down to $11,500 for a FULL package with glass, bricks, charger, and a bag. Now all I'll need is another $1,750 for a Firestore (I'm getting the DR-HD100-80 instead of the FS-4, just 'cause it's black), and I'll be able to enjoy tapeless acquisition, too!

WINNER = SONY DSR450WSL
 
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A friend of mine is already wishing he had waited, after purchasing a 2/3" DVCam outfit last year. Seems like it is hard to sell his clients on SD dvcam when everyone is talking HD. Doesn't make any sense, but you know how the hype drives what people want. I guess your needs are different.
 
I'll post some footage as soon as I order it and shoot something. I think I'm gonna order it today. Then I gotta move to a new house next week. As for purchasing a high quality 2/3" SD camera among the wave of HD products, the price can't be beat right now for 2/3" SD (or maybe it can). I have no clients. I am buying this camera to make my own movies. After much study of all the 1/3" and 1/2" HD options available right now, I think the benefits of a very high quality 2/3" SD imager still wins for my applications.

Remember, this is an 800-line SD camera (850-lines in 4:3)--very sharp for SD. And it's extremely quiet--65dB SNR. And, it's VERY sensitive--a stop or more sensitive than any of the new HD products out there. I'm going to lens my mini-movies in standard-def DVCAM, and then take only the final edit master through a Teranex Xantus (or even a $3,999 Teranex Mini) and up-res to HDCAM. There's a Sony SDI board available for the DSR450 for not too much money. I can take an SDI out right from a DVCAM master, right out of the camera into a Teranex Mini, right into an HDW-F500 HDCAM VTR.

P.S. Actually, I do have a client! The show I work for sometimes rents full-sized 24P cameras for high-profile interviews, usually an SDX900 or HDW-F900. But, they typically don't need high-def, they just want good quality 24P, and the DVCAM cassettes will fit right into their existing DV VTRs.
 
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Thank you for this thread I have been struggling with the same decision a 2/3 in SD camera or a 1/3 in Hd camera but Ihave been looking at used 2/3 in. cameras so it is more of an apples to apples comparison price wise. I still haven't decided but I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who hasen't drunk the HD cool-aid.
 
I DID IT!

You're welcome! Glad I'm not alone. Yes, after MUCH internal debate, I finally did it. I JUST got off the phone with B+H and ordered the DSR450 kit. Had to also order the Anton-Bauer QR-DSR Gold Mount-V-mount adapter for $135 since they were out of stock on the V-mount bricks included in the package (I have some Anton Bauer bricks and a charger already). I lost out on the $500 show special--they said it didn't apply to the kit, but he was nice enough to give me an additional $150 discount anyway.

So, I paid for two-day shipping with the $150 discount, so I'll have the camera by Friday. I'm also supposed to move this weekend, so not much time to shoot any tests or anything. Can't wait to shoot something with it. As soon as I get moved in, I'll be busy shooting LOTS of night exteriors, lit only by mercury vapor street lights!
 
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I've had the DSR-450 since January in rental inventory. It is the first SD camera I've owned where I can turn off detail and still feel that the natural resolution is good, due to the 1000X1000 + pixel count. It looks very filmic with detail off, film gamma, 24P w/1/48th shutter, black stretch. With a black net behind the lens, monitoring out of SDI, it looks very natural, organic on a 14" Sony color critical monitor.

I've done some slow shutter tests at night and it's amazing what kind of super
clean, detailed low light images the camera produces.

The 450 is the quietest camera I've ever owned. I've had many Sony
CCD cameras(all 2/3"), including BVP-50's, BVP-70's, BVP-90, BVW-D600's,
BVP-550WS, DSR-500WS, and the DSR-450 amazes me. The menu control
parameters are so comprehensive, on a whole other planet from a DSR-500WS,
even better than my BVP-550's, but very similar user interface.

I like the fact that the camera doesn't have a color correction filter wheel, just
ND's. The white balance range is incredible. I would love to see this camera
with primes and HD zoom lenses.

The biggest negative is the SDI output not providing playback, and the
Panasonic SDX-900 being the established standard in the industry(along with
the DVX-100 of course).

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com
 
I'm still thinking about this camera as well, although I was told that I could get an SDX package by a local dealer for a comparable price, with lens and bricks, new. What do you folks think, SDX or DSR? I already have a dvcam deck, so if I do the SDX, I'll need a deck. Is it worth it for 4:2:2, or will I be satisfied with the 450?
 
I think the current SDX-900 price is around $16K without viewfinder or lens, after the recent price reduction. The DSR-450WS street price after $3000 rebate is around $10,000. The 900 is a great SD camera. I bought the 450 because I'm a Sony rental house, many of my corporate customers like DVCAM and have decks for their NLE's. When I bought the 450, I paid $12,500, while the 900 was over $20K, so I felt like I would be able to fill a rental day rate niche between the DVX-100 and SDX-900 and give my customers a format they already use while adding 24P capability.

The 4:2:2 of the 900 is nice and Digital Betacam at 10 bits is even nicer, but
like DVCAM, Sony was late to the party for 24P with Digital Betacam.

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com
 
Dino said:
The 450 is the quietest camera I've ever owned. I've had many SonyCCD cameras(all 2/3"), including BVP-50's, BVP-70's, BVP-90, BVW-D600's, BVP-550WS, DSR-500WS, and the DSR-450 amazes me.
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Jeff:

Wow! That's quite an endorsement! We have BVW400As and BVW600s at work, and boy, those cameras are darned clean, even the 400A. Was wondering what you meant about the SDI-out not having playback, but I guess that makes sense. It only puts out SDI live, right?

Where have you been all this time while I've been struggling with this decision for the past year? Great post! I hope you post more. Simon Wyndham posts fairly often here--although he owns a PDW510, he says that the DSR450 has the identical menu/matrix set-up. He's posted some cool "filmic" menu settings on his personal website.

Well, it sure is great to hear from another DSR450 owner. I feel like I'm the only one who even knows about this camera sometimes! Between you, me, and that bilgami guy (who's getting a DSR450 at work soon), maybe, Jarred may see fit to post a DSR450 cameras category here someday. Chris Hurd has offered to create one at his site, but DVXuser still feels like home.

Anyway, since I just plopped down $15,000 USD yesterday, I was having a severe case of SD-buyer's remorse last night. Hopefully I'm over it now, because no HD camera I've tested has anywhere near the sensitivity of the DSR450, and that's a crucial constraint for me.

Thanks for your post!
 
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Rezfactor,

Peter DeCrescenzo has posted some great info on the 450 at some other forums. He and Simon have been great resources. Peter's had the 450 for quite a while. To be sure, I didn't buy the 450 as a high def. solution, although it could be upconverted with pretty good results, IMO. I found the D600's to be noisy, although the SN was masked by Betacam's inherit analog noise, but typically shot in -3db whenever possible. With the 450, the only reason to shoot in -3db would be to open up a stop for a shallower depth of field.

I had the camera side by side on an outdoor scene yesterday with my DSR-500,
and in 24P, with 1/48th shutter, the F-stop was the same, using the same ND.
This is because the 450 does not have an 85 filter, but instead an electronic
color correction 5600K button when shooting at preset, so no light is lost to an
optical filter, or you can white balance for more exact results. This could be useful when shooting indoors with daylight balanced Kino Flos or HMIs.

I have never considered the DSR-500 to have a real user interface, it was just
too dumbed down, not enough handles for getting different looks. The 450 is
the complete opposite, it has as much or more setup control as a Sony studio
companion broadcast camera and the user interface is the same as many Sony broadcast cameras, Digibeta camcorders and HDCam camcorders.

BTW, at Cinematography.com, there are a few other 450 owners.

Good luck with your new camera!

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com
 
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