Squeeze that film look!

soarprod said:
Someone should encode some JVC & XLh1 footage into h.264 and it might provide a little better comparison in regards to noise.
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Compression is not the same as noise. Careful.

Disjecta is one of the most highly regarded members here from what I've seen. I don't think he would also be voicing his opinion about the issue if he didn't feel it was a valid one. I agree that everyone needs to use the camera for themselves to determine whether or not it can meet their personal requirements, but to constantly refute that the noise even exists feels just as silly to me as the moderators who think that complaining about it is annoying. The camera is noisy, that's just a fact of life. Whether or not it bothers you or is enough to sway you away from purchasing one is, on the other hand, completely individual (and given everything the HVX can do, there are handfuls of reasons for people to like it). But it would be nice to stop the back and forth, on both sides, because just claiming that those of us who can see the noise are batty is just as insulting as those of us who have to defend ourselves constantly for wanting a higher level of quality in our pictures.

I should also remind you that like myself, disjecta is a longtime DVX user. There's no Panasonic axe to grind here.
 
I think that if we’d be respectful enough to not, however politely, poke each other in the eye every time there is a opposing opinion less apologies would be necessary.

This type of discussion will never abate but that’s because there are choices (and thankfully so). I kind of appreciate the fact that we don’t all have to drive black Volkswagen beetles . . .

If your issue is higher quality you have options: cinealta, varicam, and viper.
 
Haakon said:
but to constantly refute that the noise even exists feels just as silly to me as the moderators who think that complaining about it is annoying. The camera is noisy, that's just a fact of life.
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I think you're referring to me, "one of those moderators who finds the constant noise gripes annoying." I think I find it annoying that people don't use the same fine tooth comb to scrutinize HDV compression blocks and noise. From the JVC and Canon footage I've looked at I find the compression blocking from action scenes to be worse than the noise issues from all three cams. I'm looking at footage from the HD100 and Canon, and as soon as soon as you get some action in your frame things get a little stroby and wonky. That's one the strengths of the HVX, it handles motion perfectly. And I think it has the best color handling of all three cams.

All of the sub 10k cams have (pick your poison) issues and compromises. I'm more interested in the filmmaking people are doing than counting pixels and looking for noise.
 
Also, everyone knows theres a noise issue. Its there, yep, Panasonic will fix it, its something their people/customers dont like. But to constantly beat around the bush about this fact, seems kind of immature. Its like when your screening footage (like we are here) and you are trying to prove a point (color, acting, lighting, stock?) then theres that one guy that stands up in the middle of the audience and yells "THERES NOISE DO U SEE IT!"- ruining the mood and completely offsetting the discussion. I know Disjecta was joking, and i tried to give a propper answer to the joke. He's a cool guy! None of us of here to start something, rather to learn and be educated on all things HVX. If someone wants to stand up and voice their opinion, theres nothing wrong with that, i dont mind.

But please, make sure youve analyzed the competition. Dont poke blame entirely at Panasonic until youve tested and/or seen the strengths and weeknesses of all the competition. You'd be surprised how tolerable a little noise is ;)
 
It's annoying because people are looking for noise first. Go to a theatre and watch a film. You will see just as much noise as these cameras produce. Film grain is noisy as hell. And it's unfair to people posting their work to have their films critiqued in only one category, noise.
 
Isaac_Brody said:
It's annoying because people are looking for noise first. Go to a theatre and watch a film. You will see just as much noise as these cameras produce. Film grain is noisy as hell. And it's unfair to people posting their work to have their films critiqued in only one category, noise.
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I completely agree! At least the HVX's "noise" looks like film stock grain. Go to a theatre... there's WAY more noise in a film, than in this HVX footage.
 
Id have to disagree with the noise/ vs film grain debate. To me the noise has its own signature, it is "sparkly" compared to film grain. More electronic and slightly more random in where it appears. Grain is much more organic and fits the image like hand-in-glove. The grain seems to work with a film image, hense the image being composed entirely of grain. With Digital ( varicam, cinealta, HVX, etc) the noise is apart from the image and to me is more distracting.

HOWEVER, lol, i rather take that noise over HDV motion. Motion is motion, you cant screw it up. Noise=grain=orgnanic=electronic, whatever, you can fix it if you have to or blame it on looking like grain if all else fails. Dont really mind that. But there is no excuse for bad motion.
 
I recommend that everyone check out this clip from the JVC - comparable resolution to the HVX but pause the playback in any of the motion scenes and see what HDV does.

http://www.danielpatton.com/jvc/MotoJVC-HD.wmv



And when you start thinking to yourself that the JVC may not be the camera for you, why dont you look at some of the original m2t's ~ http://www.danielpatton.com/jvc/
Footage doesn't seem that bad right? Since HDV is compressed more heavily than DVCproHD, when you compress another generation, it starts to breakup faster.
 
Not pro any camera - just for people to see that we compare cams accurately - both pre and post compression, correction, etc.
 
I am with Isaac 100%

All of the sub 10k cams have (pick your poison) issues and compromises. I'm more interested in the filmmaking people are doing than counting pixels and looking for noise.
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Watching Schindler's List "Look at that noise in the blacks!"
Watching Once Upon a Time in Mexico "Look at that noise in the blacks!"

People around here are starting to sound like friggin Rainman; someone submit's some nice footage for our viewing plaesure and we get "Noise, definately noise." even though the footage is 'uberskool'


Do you guy's even realize it was not even 4 years ago 28 Days Later came out and we all saw an XL1 on the big screen and kicking ass ? It's all about the filmmaking now.


We can agree or disagree all day on the Film Grain / Video Noise issue all day long. Why split hairs on the subject ? Film Grain is noise. It is the silver's refusal to replicate an image 100% in the emulsion. The size of the grain usually dependant on the speed of the film. Video Noise is feedback from the CCD; a failure for the CCD's to replicate the image perfectly ...

Are they different ? Well, yeah ... But kind of producing the same/silmilar result in the end aren't they ? They're different monsters indigenous to their unique formats. Yeah, that's the ticket.

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Maybe it is time to just get rid of the other camera sub-forum's as to eliminate the constant griping between cameras and formats and bring back the community we once were here.
 
No

Don't make me cry. A way's back I was definately saying 'I do not need an upgrade.' and now I'm just pissed. Damn it.

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I have one lined up for renting this year though and cannot wait to get my greedy little hands on it.

-
 
John_Hudson said:
Do you guy's even realize it was not even 4 years ago 28 Days Later came out and we all saw an XL1 on the big screen and kicking ass ? It's all about the filmmaking now.


We can agree or disagree all day on the Film Grain / Video Noise issue all day long. Why split hairs on the subject ? Film Grain is noise. It is the silver's refusal to replicate an image 100% in the emulsion. The size of the grain usually dependant on the speed of the film. Video Noise is feedback from the CCD; a failure for the CCD's to replicate the image perfectly ...

Are they different ? Well, yeah ... But kind of producing the same/silmilar result in the end aren't they ? They're different monsters indigenous to their unique formats. Yeah, that's the ticket.

-

Maybe it is time to just get rid of the other camera sub-forum's as to eliminate the constant griping between cameras and formats and bring back the community we once were here.
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John, I wholeheartedly agree with your post except for the last part.

DVXuser.com used to have the tagline "The online community for digital filmmaking"...now it's even more generic. If you want to stop talking about the competition, why not call it DVXsandbox?

Isn't this site about getting the most out of this whole slew of embarrassingly good tools? Or does the DVX community (which I am a part of!!) not want a mirror held up to it and face honest criticism.

I totally accept every fault that comes along with my camera of choice. You are so friggin' right though...it's about the CONTENT and TECHNIQUES now!!

It is a bit disheartening that there's an "other cameras" forum, tagged with "the other guys" as if it was a high school dance where the wallflowers were grudgingly acknowledged.

Come on, I know this community is Panny focused, but let's not get THAT balkanized!

The thing is, other sites can be so dry by comparison. I love the fact that I can post pics and goof around and not be so straight-laced.

Competition is healthy, y'all.
 
I have been working and saving diligently to purchase one an HVX, and kinda find myself at the crossroads now in a similar situation to Mr. Hudsons. I can now purchase a DVX, but "do I need the upgrade?" I mean, it's three grand more, and let's face it, my experience with cameras above the thousand dollar range is slim. However, I make movies, and they've gotten good response, and I don't think i'm cinematic dumbass, plus i love making them. But that still brings up the question of which would be better for me at this point.

What do you guys think?

And by the by, just so I'm not totally off topic--that ain't noise, man. I mean, it is noise, but think back to when you guys were using consumer cameras. That's noise. I'd post some grabs of my camera right now, but it looks like a pointilism painting, like Picnic in the Park, if you catch my drift.
 
Elton said:
John, I wholeheartedly agree with your post except for the last part.

DVXuser.com used to have the tagline "The online community for digital filmmaking"...now it's even more generic. If you want to stop talking about the competition, why not call it DVXsandbox?

Isn't this site about getting the most out of this whole slew of embarrassingly good tools? Or does the DVX community (which I am a part of!!) not want a mirror held up to it and face honest criticism.

I totally accept every fault that comes along with my camera of choice. You are so friggin' right though...it's about the CONTENT and TECHNIQUES now!!

It is a bit disheartening that there's an "other cameras" forum, tagged with "the other guys" as if it was a high school dance where the wallflowers were grudgingly acknowledged.

Come on, I know this community is Panny focused, but let's not get THAT balkanized!

The thing is, other sites can be so dry by comparison. I love the fact that I can post pics and goof around and not be so straight-laced.

Competition is healthy, y'all.
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http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=516161&postcount=3

Is that so ? :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG) (Hate these new emoticons and I'm totally ribbing you.)

--

With all due respect my friend; you were not here in the old days. I mean that as respectfully as I can be.

This community used to be about support and fostering of one group of filmmaker and not a constant bitchfest and sandbox scrap (Well put by the way) on which camera delivers the finer results.

I see one camera's stuff being submitted and instead of the content of the piece being razed it is the technical results being questioned "Nice noise!" "Look's vide-oy!". It should be about content and creativity not competing cameras.

I suppose I am not innocent of these types of posts and am not happy about that.

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Another note: Generally, I am noticing the same group of people that loved the DVX loving the HVX (generally, I say! Generally!).

DVXUSER

It was special. It was a special kind of atmosphere and it did seem like a club of sorts and that is what was damn cool about it. (Dont get confused, this is still the coolest place on the web IMO (I mean besides playboy.com))
 
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