Confused about P2 vs. Firestore... need advice

M

Mike@AF

Veteran
I have two cameras on order with two different authorized dealers recommended on this forum. Both are expecting my camera to arrive by the end of the month, which means I need to cancel one. The problem is that I can't decide which one to cancel.

What I have on order is:

HVX200 with one 4GB P2 card for $5740 shipped
HVX200 with no cards for $5331.56 shipped

I plan on using the camera to shoot a feature film in August. There are two ways I can handle acquisition, and that's where my decision has hit a roadblock. I can shoot with two 4GB P2 cards and offload to a harddrive, P2Store, or Powerbook on set. The other option would be to record to the Firestore (or Cineporter if I wait and it acutally comes out in time). It's approx. a $440 difference between the two orders.

I like the idea of being able to just keep recording to the Firestore over an hour. This means I would never have to copy/reload anything, but I think my understanding is that the Firestore doesn't record the same quality as P2 (native?). I also like the idea of not having something external connected to the camera all the time (I'm shooting a lot of steadycam (Glidecam) stuff.

So... what exactly is the difference between P2 and Firestore recording? I don't understand the native recording ability of the P2. Can someone explain this is simple terms for me? Will one method give me better picture quality than another? Picture quality is extremely important to me and I don't really have plans for variable frame rate at the moment, but you never know (there are some stunts).

Any suggestions on which package to go with? I would like to cancel one on Friday.

Thanks for the help.
 
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The P2Store might be the way to go, it holds up to 60 gigs and transfers at half the recording time, runs off battery power, and connects easily to a G5 via USB 2.0. (Don't translate your raw files with a G4, it compresses it 7:1)
 
DonWoo2 said:
The P2Store might be the way to go, it holds up to 60 gigs and transfers at half the recording time, runs off battery power, and connects easily to a G5 via USB 2.0. (Don't translate your raw files with a G4, it compresses it 7:1)
Click to expand...

Is this a g4 problem, or a FInal Cut problem? It doesn't make sense for me that a Processor would be further compressing a file ... Isn't this a Final Cut pro 5.04 problem? Anyone can clear this myth? Barry?
 
do the P2 store. it's made & designed by panasonic. i own it and i feel absolutely safe using and trusting it. it even uses the same batteries as the camera. the less cables and stuff hanging off the camera the better. the P2 store will empty/reformat the card in a matter of seconds, where as, i heard it takes a couple of minutes to do it any other way..

use the cards and then transfer it to the p2 store, transfer time is semi-fast. takes about 5 mins for 20 mins of 720pn footage... if you have the luxuary of setting up a computer on set to transfer / back up the files, the p2 store will make it easy to do that without having to slow you down. it's perfect for an assistant editor to do, that's right I said assistant editor.. make sure it's somebody who understands editing because no matter what you do, you'll want to feel safe about backing up, storing and sorting out all your clips... cause you'll have to erase it eventually... it's always scary to erase things.. but, we'll just going to have to get use to it.. P2 is a whole new world... I really love it.
 
Hi Mike,
the difference between fs100 and a p2 is that you can record "native"mode to the p2 , that means that only the active frames are recorded:simple example:if you record 24 frames a second in native mode, you will have about 8 minutes on a 4 gig p2 card.
If you record 24 frames on a fs 100 it records 60 frames, also if the editing system just uses the 24 frames finally!
 
Does that mean the native mode is true progressive images and 24 frames per second and the FS100 is interlaced at 60 frames per second and has to go through pulldown process to get back to 24 frames per second on the timeline in FCP? Is there a difference in picture quality, rendering speeds, file size, or is it something else?

I also want to be able to back up each card to DVD-R. Am I correct in understanding that the P2Store will have a separate partition for each card I transfer to it? This would allow me to easily archive each partition to a DVD-R and then copy to my editing system, right?
 
Please forgive me, but I am still having trouble understanding what is being said about the FS-100 not being able to capture 24p, "natively". I had a hard time understanding HVX_germanyboy's explanation. I went to the Focus Enhancements site and read the FAQ on the FS-100 and see no mention of what is being said here on this forum.

Someone please break this down for me so I can understand. If I shoot in 24p and capture to the FS-100 instead of the P2, what is the difference? The Focus FAQ says

What file format are HD files encoded to?
The FS-100 encodes DVCPRO and DVCPRO 50 files as MXF P2 (OPAtom) files formatted in the P2 directory structure.
Click to expand...

So how can there be any difference between capturing to an actual P2 card? Where are you getting your information? What real difference will it make if what is being said here is true? I ask this in all seriousness because the only thing keeping me from ordering a HVX200 today, is I am waiting for the FS-100 to go with it. Also know consider that I have no plans of ever transfering my work to 35m, if that makes any difference in your response to my questions. I just want to be sure that the FS-100 in no way limits what I can do with the camera.

Thanks in advance.
 
As I understand it...

Basically you can record DVCProHD 720p to the Firestore through the Firewire output. This (apparently but not yet confirmed) doesn't allow 720Pn24p recording (native) but instead records a 60p stream which later is converted to 24p (or 25p if you're in PAL land). So this equates roughly to 100gigs, 100 minutes.

However, if you record natively (which you can only do through P2) you can get double the amount of recording because it only records the necessary frames (24 or 25 if PAL) rather than a 60p stream.

Solutions P2 include of course the 4 and 8 gig cards. You can offload them to the 60gb P2Store (which should allow 120 mins of native DVCProHD).

And there's the cineporter which plugs into the P2 slot - 160gb - no problems with recording native DVCProHD. But that's out later in the year.
 
Why is only 720p native being mentioned? Is there no 1080 native? Doesn't that provide more horizontal resolution and so should give a better picture and be more desirable?
 
ok what does that ACTUALLY mean?
a 60p stream which later gets converted to 25p (I am in PAL land)
how does this effect variable frame rate??

im totally lost.
 
Thanks Booth.

So if I understand you correctly, the only real issue is getting the most out of your storage. Meaning the the FS-100, supposedly will eat up more storage doing 24p since its is creating a 60p stream, where as the P2 doesn't. Does this create any problem with the actual finished product? Will my footage suffer from it is my main question? If not, I don't mind the extra space 24p will eat up using the FS-100. And has this been officially confirmed?

I like the p2 technology, but for what I need the camera for it isn't practical, yet. I'm not shooting features and I have to be able to shoot for 30 to 60 minutes without stopping to offload. So that is why, for me at least, the FS-100 is the only way I can get the HVX200. I'm looking forward to the day when we have 50GB P2 cards that are under $1500. But for now, I need the FS-100 for my work.
 
how do you go about summoning barry in this place.

can anyone else pull up a post on this? I dont understand the 60p stream thing at all.
 
As far as I'm aware it doesn't affect variable frame-rates at all.

To be honest I can't understand why you can't get native out of the Firewire-out. Perhaps that may change with a firmware upgrade?

I also don't know understand how much more useful is the 60p stream that's later converted to 24/25p compared to recording 720Pn Native which just records the active 24/25 frames.
 
yeah those are questions I need answering...I barely understood what you just said.

what do you mean by active frames???
 
aelent said:
Thanks Booth.

So if I understand you correctly, the only real issue is getting the most out of your storage. Meaning the the FS-100, supposedly will eat up more storage doing 24p since its is creating a 60p stream, where as the P2 doesn't. Does this create any problem with the actual finished product? Will my footage suffer from it is my main question? If not, I don't mind the extra space 24p will eat up using the FS-100. And has this been officially confirmed?
Click to expand...

Yes aelent, that is true. And as far as I'm aware there's no difference between the native recording and the 60p stream recording. However I don't know the benefits of starting with a 60p stream. Perhaps this lets you in the edit use variable frame-rates using the extra recorded streams, but I'm just speculating on this point.

aelent said:
I like the p2 technology, but for what I need the camera for it isn't practical, yet. I'm not shooting features and I have to be able to shoot for 30 to 60 minutes without stopping to offload. So that is why, for me at least, the FS-100 is the only way I can get the HVX200. I'm looking forward to the day when we have 50GB P2 cards that are under $1500. But for now, I need the FS-100 for my work.
Click to expand...

I think the Firestore (100gb = 100 minutes of 60p non native capture) - or later on in the year the Cineporter (which does allow native recording so 160gb should equate to 320 mins in native should it?) would suit your workflow much better.

Pity the FS100 has been delayed - just been told by one dealer that in the UK it's coming next week, and by another that it's going to be 2/3 weeks. Another told me that Panasonic are really leaning on Focus to get the Firestore out there.
 
adam powell said:
how do you go about summoning barry in this place.

can anyone else pull up a post on this? I dont understand the 60p stream thing at all.
Click to expand...
For the 50Hz model read 50p instead of 60p.

(I prefer to call it 50Hz rather than PAL, as PAL/NTSC are refering to resolutions as well as frame rates)

I think it is more of an issue with the 60Hz people - think of how films are put on to NTSC DVDs. There are 24 frames and its carried by a mpeg stream with 60 fields (or 30 frames if thats easier to understand). Theres a funny pulldown method that distributes the 24 frames into the 60 fields.
 
adam powell said:
what do you mean by active frames???
Click to expand...

Active frames...

For PAL users - you're recording a 50 frame stream, out of that you only need 25 frames so the extra 25 AFAIK are discarded.

For NTSC users - you're recording a 60 frame stream, out of that you only need 24 frames so the extra 36 frames AFAIK are discarded.

So the frames that are used are the 'active frames'.
 
thanking you kindly.

does anyone know if adding then discarding these frames has any negative effects?

or is it just the pulldown method that is the disadvantage?

sorry if im being thick.
 
My humble opinion:

The best option would of course be to wait for the cineporter and get the best out of both worlds. Since it doesn't look like you can do that though, it seems like firestore might be more effecient shooting wise if not space wise.

If you're only getting 1 4gig P2, that would mean that you'll have to deal with only 8 minutes of footage and you'll have to dump that to a P2 store. Even though the P2 store is going to be 60 gigs which means about 120 minutes of footage, this seems to be a real hassle.

For what it would cost you to get both a cinestore and the P2 card, you could buy a firestore. Yes, it'll be less economical, meaning that you'll only get 100 minutes out of your 100 gigs but you'll be able to shoot those 100 minutes continuously and dump them later. That alone would be worth it to me as far as shooting goes, especially on those long days for a feature.

On the otherhand, it does mean that you'll have to spend more money on other hard-drives for your raw footage when you dump it as it will always be in 60fps. If you don't mind that (or already have a LOT of space as you should), then I'd go with the firestore.

I plan to just wait for the cineporter though as I can't see why one would bother with P2 cards when it comes out.
 
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