Sony PXW-Z280 & PXW-Z190 4K cams

I'm coming back to this style of camera after 10+ years - I currently use an FS7 and A7Rii.

I'm comparing the 280 with a Z100, which is roughly half the price and is available now as an end-of-line item. I have a series of low profile docco shoots coming up and may need to start before July, when the 280 is scheduled for release. I'm relieved to hear the 280 takes XQD cards, as those are the only high speed media I have - thanks for that update, Doug.

I'd welcome thoughts on the following Z100 vs 280 queries:

Sensitivity - the 2 cameras are specced differently on the Sony site, one in lumens and the other in f stops. Any idea what the real world differences are? Is the Z100 significantly noisier?

Auto Focus - never used it on a video camera, but Sony are making a big deal about the eye tracking AF on the 280. Is this actually useful or a bit of a gimmick? Does it give typical AF results? ie, focus hunting etc...

FOV - Sam mentioned a 30mm FF FOV on the wide end of the 280. Any idea what it is on the Z100?

Any other things you think one should consider when comparing the two? A quick glance through the Z100 manual suggests it will only do "custom" gamma curves and I can't see any reference to S-log recording or Cine EI. How will the 280 handle log recording and viewfinder LUTs? Can it do Cine EI?

Thanks,

Ben.
 
Ben
As you own the 18-110 proper zoom I would think that that matched with an fs5 (and a 50 1.8 in your back pocket) would present serious competition to these announced cameras.

The 18-110 combo with fs5 still seems to be the front runner for a portable package to me.

Had they got wider than 30 I'd reconsider that.
 
Yeah, the FS5 - really nice sized package.

But I'm being hamstrung by broadcast reqs - gotta be 10 bit 422 4K.

As far as I can see, nothing else out there offers a compact 10 bit docco solution.
 
morgan_moore said:
Had they got wider than 30 I'd reconsider that.
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Well, then start reconsidering because your numbers are all wrong. The Z280 has a wide angle focal length of 5.6mm which is equivalent to 18mm on a super35mm camera, such as the FS5, FS7, F55, etc.
You already said that the f/4 Sony 18-110 and FS5 is a good combo. Well, the Z280 is way BETTER because it gives you an f/1.9 18-306mm equivalent. How can that possibly not be acceptable??

Sony really shoots themselves in the foot when they give equivalent focal lengths based on FF 35mm. Who cares about that? How many people are shooting with video cameras that have FF sensors? I can't relate to it at all. Most of us work in a super35mm environment and that is what we can relate to.

So put your order in now, Sam, because youre gonna love the Z280. It is as wide as you'd ever need in almost all shooting situations.

I'll address the other questions raised on this thread later when I have time. Gotta go shoot something . . .
 
jc01108 said:
Anyone know if the Z280 will have custom mode slog or CineEI mode like the FS7?
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Yes, it has S-Log3! :)

Doug Jensen said:
Well, then start reconsidering because your numbers are all wrong. The Z280 has a wide angle focal length of 5.6mm which is equivalent to 18mm on a super35mm camera.
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30.3mm on a full frame camera (what the PXW-Z280 features) is not ridiculously wide. It's decent, but other cameras in this space have considerably wider lenses (for example, the lens on the Panasonic AG-UX180 starts at 24mm on its wide end). That doesn't mean the PXW-Z280 is hobbled in any way - like I said, for my uses I prefer the extra reach on the long end. But to pretend it's excessively wide isn't being reasonable; if someone is looking for a camera they can use in really tight spots, then their concerns with this camera may absolutely be valid.

As for listing measurements in FF equivalents, that's a discussion that devolves quickly and just like politics everyone seems to have their side and can't think beyond it. In my opinion, full frame is exactly the right way to do it - Super 35 is not a broadcast format by any stretch of the imagination and all the glass people throw on their FS5s/FS7s was designed for full frame sensors. If you work in a cinematic/narrative space, then yes, the traditional format is Super 35. That's because most PL glass was designed to cover a Super 35mm film negative (and how many people here are regularly shooting film?). When discussing an EFG/EPG camera, the standards are really 2/3" or lower. I'd wager most people in the DVXUser space - the independent filmmakers shooting narrative content on dSLRs or mirrorless cameras - actually are shooting on full frame cameras. It's only the cheaper models that cut corners on sensor size. Even in the high end space where change is the slowest, the flagship cinematic cameras from all the major manufacturers are beginning to switch over to full frame - Canon has announced the C700 full frame, Sony has the Venice, and RED has their Monstro 8K VV camera. There is zero question that full frame is where everything is headed, but more than that, that's what the modern lenses used on the majority of digital cameras are designed for.

Anyway, I don't want that discussion to take away from what looks to be an absolutely home run of a product. I hope those who are interested in this space give it a serious look, because it ticks nearly every box I can think of.
 
Haakon said:
But to pretend it's excessively wide isn't being reasonable;
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Did anyone say that the Z280 is excessively wide? I said that if 18mm was good enough for Sam on one camera than that equivalent FoV ought to be good enough on another. I would have preferred 15mm, but 18mm is just fine for this type of camera -- but I'm not "pretending" it is excessively wide. I'm pretending, it is good enough.

If comparing the focal length to an FF sensor is what you prefer, then Sony is giving you exactly what you want. Personally, I don't need Sony or anyone else giving me equivalent focal lengths for any format. Just tell me the sensor size and the focal length and that's all the info I need, thank you. Any professional should all be able to translate those numbers into whatever makes sense in their own head. Unfortunately, that is not the case for a lot of people and they need to have it chewed for them. Which is fine, but I believe super35 is a much more relatable comparison for most professionals. Like it or not, super35 is the predominant format for cinema-style cameras today, not full frame.

Also, although the Z280 does have S-LOG3, it doesn't have a CINE EI mode or any MLUT capability so that makes it very different from Sony's cinema cameras. Don't quote me on this because I've not spent enough time yet with the camerato be 100% sure, but I'm failry certain there isn't even way to monitor the pure unadulterated S-LOG3 signal in the viewfinder and you're always going to be looking at some REC709 image instead. I hope that isn't true, but that's what it looks like to me right now. So, yes the Z280 has S-LOG3, but it ain't your daddy's S-LOG3.
 
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Doug Jensen said:
Like it or not, super35 is the predominant format for cinema-style cameras today, not full frame.
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Agreed, but this isn't a cinema-style camera so I have no idea why you'd want to compare it to one.

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the lens; it was previously branded an "HD lens" when paired with the PXW-X200 and appears to be otherwise unchanged. Do you think it will be able to resolve a UHD image well enough? It seems like a fairly big issue if one of its main selling points above the previous model (4K) is hobbled by the glass.
 
This is getting silly! Broadcast format or standard used to mean something in days gone by. Broadcast format these days includes and iPhone and Skype so lets not bother to go there. In my experience lately, broadcast quality has more to do with the best camera for the buck than anything else. I shot with a PMW 300K1 for a few years, sold it and moved to my current ENG/EFP camera a PXW-Z150 which more than meets the needs of every broadcaster I work for and that includes SDI out for live hits. So the new Z280 and Z190 will certainly do the same and then some. And if all else fails I will move from an iPhone 6 to and 8, that will get them booking me for sure.
 
Haakon said:
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the lens; it was previously branded an "HD lens" when paired with the PXW-X200 and appears to be otherwise unchanged. Do you think it will be able to resolve a UHD image well enough? It seems like a fairly big issue if one of its main selling points above the previous model (4K) is hobbled by the glass.
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I spoke to the Japanese engineers about the lens and they confirmed that it was essentially the same lens that was on the X200. However, according to them, that lens was developed years ago with 4K already in mind. So even though it may have been badged as an "HD" lense on the X200 (an HD camera) it is totally up to the task of providing nice 4K images.

NAB is not the place to put any camera or lens through its paces to evaluate the fine points of image quality, but I saw nothing at all that gave me any misgivings about the lenses on the Z280 or Z190. Everything that I saw on the camera itself and the demo videos looked very good.
 
jc01108 said:
Z280 ticks all the boxes for me except HFR; a great replacement for my EX1r. Why no 120 HD HFR? Seems odd to leave it out when lessor cameras have it.
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I agree. That was the main feature that I, and many people visiting the Sony booth, felt was missing from the camera. I was lobbying very hard with the engineers to fix this oversight and I think they recognize that it is much more important than they had anticipated. I went through this same scenario last year when the Z450 didn't have S-LOG3 because they didn't think that Z450 customers cared about S-LOG. But after pushing hard for it, the Z450 got S-LOG later in the summer. I'll be really surprised if the Z280 and maybe even the Z190 don't get 120 fps HD. Maybe even before they actually start shipping, but if not by then, hopefully in a firmware udpate soon after. Even emails I've gotten from the engineers after NAB shows it is on their minds.
 
Doug - Sonys published spec afaik is "30" MM 18S35 is "27" MM - which is quite different - to me 27-8 is absolutely the minimum wide one "needs"

It would be great if the figure you give is correct and Sonys own page is wrong :)

S
 
bengiles said:
Auto Focus - never used it on a video camera, but Sony are making a big deal about the eye tracking AF on the 280. Is this actually useful or a bit of a gimmick? Does it give typical AF results? ie, focus hunting etc...
.
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Eye tracking AF on the Z280? I never heard anything about that and I don't even see how it could work if someone (such as Fotojorno) was shooting with the flip-out LCD instead of the viewfinder. If Sony is making a big deal about eye tracking AF I sure missed it all. What is your source on this?
 
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morgan_moore said:
Doug - Sonys published spec afaik is "30" MM 18S35 is "27" MM - which is quite different - to me 27-8 is absolutely the minimum wide one "needs"

It would be great if the figure you give is correct and Sonys own page is wrong :)

S
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The actual focal length of the lens is 5.6mm and the sensor size is 1/2". Those are both facts. So please do the math and let us know what you think is the equivalent FoV when compared to a FS7. I look forward to hearing your number. I say it is just a hair wider than 18mm.

(BTW, I have no idea what you mean when you say "27-8 is absolutely the minimum wide one needs". What the hell is 27-8?
 
Haakon said:
As for listing measurements in FF equivalents, that's a discussion that devolves quickly and just like politics everyone seems to have their side and can't think beyond it. In my opinion, full frame is exactly the right way to do it - Super 35 is not a broadcast format by any stretch of the imagination and all the glass people throw on their FS5s/FS7s was designed for full frame sensors. .
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OK... I know this has been stated thousands of times already, but... It doesn't matter if a lens was designed for a "large sensor" or not, if you take an 50mm lens designed for a "FF" sensor and put it on a camera with a s35 sensor, like an Fs5 or Fs7 as you cite above, it will give you the same FoV as the 50mm lens designed to cover a s35 sensor and placed on a camera with s35 sensor(unless you start introducing something like a speed booster, but that is not what we're talking about).
 
BrianMurphy said:
This is getting silly! Broadcast format or standard used to mean something in days gone by. Broadcast format these days includes and iPhone and Skype so lets not bother to go there. In my experience lately, broadcast quality has more to do with the best camera for the buck than anything else. I shot with a PMW 300K1 for a few years, sold it and moved to my current ENG/EFP camera a PXW-Z150 which more than meets the needs of every broadcaster I work for and that includes SDI out for live hits. So the new Z280 and Z190 will certainly do the same and then some. And if all else fails I will move from an iPhone 6 to and 8, that will get them booking me for sure.
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This makes me cry. Because it's true. I have a network client that does, in fact, use iPhones for on-air work. Not because they can't get a real crew there or because it's an emergency or breaking news situation, but soley because it's CHEAP(or free in the case of when it's just one of their reporters).
 
According to Abel Cine's original FoV Calculator(their new one does not appear to have "ENG" formats like 1/2" and 2/3"):
A 5.6mm lens on 1/2" is the same FoV as 18mm on s35 which is ~64 degrees. And going on to "FF", a ~29mm(28.7) lens on FF is the same FoV as 18mm on s35.
 
Doug Jensen said:
Eye tracking AF on the Z280? I never heard anything about that and I don't even see how it could work if someone (such as Fotojorno) was shooting with the flip-out LCD instead of the viewfinder. If Sony is making a big deal about eye tracking AF I sure missed it all. What is your source on this?
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Face tracking - sorry, I misread it:

https://pro.sony/en_GB/products/handheld-camcorders/pxw-z280#TextMediaVariabxfghle-pxw-z280

"The PXW-Z280 features newly developed Face detection AF. You can choose between Face Priority AF and Face Only AF. Simply keep the person in frame and and however you move to obtain a better angle, you can be confident the PXW-Z280 will keep your subject in pin-sharp focus."

I'm interested to know if you would actually use it. I've never used AF, but a good AF that actually did what I want most of the time might make me reconsider.

Ben.
 
Okay, thanks for the clarification.

I've experimented with Face Detect AF quite a bit during the production of my Z150 and Z90 training videos and it is very impressive. I don't find myself shooting in that kind of environment with those cameras very often so it's doubtful I'll ever need it on a real shoot, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it if I needed it. The camera places rectangles over the faces it is tracking so you can keep tabs on what it is focusing on, and you can even tell the camera to give one of the faces priority if one person (such as a bride or political candidate) is more important than the other faces. The Z280 and Z190 have the same type of Face Detect tracking so I had three of the human models on the camera set at NAB move around to demonstrate how well it worked. Flawless as far as I could tell. Of course, we are talking about 1/3" and 1/2" sensors so it's not exactly shallow DoF we are dealing with. The bottom line is don't knock it until you've tried because you may have to eat your words. :) AF is getting very impressive on these little cameras. The Z90 has what they call "Fast Hybrid AF" and it can track focus on a moving subject better than any human could do manually on that camera. Unfortunately the two new cameras do not have Fast Hybrid AF, but they do have face detect.
 
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