Zylight F8 LED Fresnel

Were the photometrics taken with the softbox on? I wasn't really trying to compare it to the F8, sorry for any misunderstanding. I was more comparing it to arri and mole pricing. Also, if I did compare it to an F8, I could still buy 7 or so of them for the price of one F8, and would be able to light up a pretty decent interior with that much firepower. I can see how some would like the battery ability, but again $2400 each plus batteries gets pretty steep for a sufficient mobile setup.

I think its probably a great product, I have the z90 and have been very happy with it and use it frequently. I'm really just bitching about the price because I'd love to be able to get some of these new LED lights but I just can't justify them even if I did have the money because their niche benefits don't give me a big enough justification for the price. It really is pure economics, one light for that much just doesn't compute unless you have that niche need and income that justifies it. I personally think that most of us don't have that income that would push us toward a $2000+ single 650 W equivalent compact battery powerable fresnel LED light without a very specific need!? So does that relegate a light like that to low volume sales...I guess it does. But I'd love to have one if that cost were lower.

I told kino that if they had a celeb 200 2-light kit for $2500-$3000 I'd have ordered one. Heck I paid $2500 for my 2-light DEVA 400 kit.
 
I will agree that it is tough for many to justify a unit that costs 10x the price of the tungsten version it replaces. I've had this conversation with several of my gaffers. I'm a long-time Zylight supporter, having made very good use of the IS3 and Z90 over the past few years, but the difference there is that those units perform tricks that set them apart from conventional units due to the RGB LED's used.

I am interested in trying out the F8 but the advantages of the compact size and battery power don't jump out for me as much as the previously mentioned units. LED's or other technology like plasma will be very interesting for higher-powered units--it would be great to be able to duplicate the firepower of a 6K HMI with a unit that can happily work off a household circuit, for one thing (well, why stop there--12K? 18K?!)

There is no doubt we are slowly but surely heading this direction--my friends on the new Mindy Kaling NBC series tell me that the network insisted they light the stage sets with LED units.

As far as rental houses cutting their rates--typical these days is a .25 day/week (so a unit that line-items for $100/day rents for $25 a week) so I don't know how much better than that they can do and still stay in business!
 
Denis Haineault said:
I have a very rudimentary understanding of why certain features found in cameras can be pricy. And I get it...I think I do anyway.

I have yet to understand why lighting equipment is so costly. I have looked at prices for most parts required to build your own (say) fresnel LED, and it didn't add up to the "very competitive" price of $2000+. that was a while ago though.

Either I overlooked something, or they charge that price because they can.
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An astute set of observations. Having been at the cusp of the LED revolution ( and lost millions thanks to my big mouth) I can confirm. LED for video is mostly egregious markup over wholesale cost and partly the cost of patent lawyers. As an inventor I can assure you that most commercial lighting products have at least one key patent to prevent rampant cloning and patents cost big money to secure. $5,000 is a base price. So by the time say a LitePanels or Zylight has brought a product to market, they may well be paying licensing fees or hefty R&D expenses and lawyer's fees. BUT most of retail is markup, somewhere between 500%- 1000% of cost to manufacture. This, by the way is the same with everything made in Asia. Something that costs $3.00 to make will cost the end customer $30.00 (1000%).
 
I have yet to see truly inexpensive lighting gear that doesn't represent compromise in build quality, light output or color purity. That may be acceptable for certain users, and they can feel free to buy that and feel good about it. Top-end gear is built to last, is reliable in the field and in most cases saves valuable time on set, which justifies the cost.

In many ways our economy is not being served by the devaluation of goods. It may seem great that one can buy a $12 toaster at Walmart when they used to cost twice that--unless you happen to have lost your job at the toaster factory when it moved its manufacturing overseas.
 
Top end gear does have all the attributes Charles mentions - but the real difference now is that many of these attributes are no longer essential.
I have a very large Mole 1K, bought probably 4th hand 15 years ago, and it's just as good as new - and has not been given any particular care and attention - in fact, apart from being fed new glass, that's it. What we have now is a swing to disposable product where lifespan is the guarantee period, anything longer is a bonus. This is the real shift. Lighting products are now no longer optical, where good glass, good reflectors and smooth internal movement is essential, to electronics. We've all got used to the fact that electronics is suitable for mass production or one-offs, and as has been said - there is very little 'new' to patent. A PCB with LEDs. Power supply and drivers and that's it. Somebody at school could produce an LED fixture at school. The only tricky point is the housing - but in many cases, you could hold up the LED circuit board with fishing line and it would be just as effective as a light source. LEDs have nothing special in them APART form the LEDs. Optical qualities are getting better and better. This is why people like ARRI make them upgradable - they know that in a year's time they will be able to produce better ones.

The second hand market for old LED lights is just not there. My two year old LED fixtures are like glow worms compared to the new ones. I cannot even replace the old ones when they die - which being made cheaply in China with low quality control, they seem to do regularly. A brand new one, with the same make, model and spec looks entirely different light wise. Buy a tungsten source and expect many years useful service. Buy a state of the art LED, and by next year, nobody will even recognise it!
 
Well, that may be true of softlight LED sources, i.e an array of LED's like the Litepanels and subsequent knockoffs. But focusable units like the F8 require a mechanical and optical design just as the previous technologies did. It's not as if the manufacturers are resting on their laurels with those anyway--units like the Arri M18 represent a quantum leap forward in power and efficiency (1.8K watts that can punch like a 4, maybe even a 6K)
 
Yes - but in a way that's exactly the problem - next year will we be seeing even more brightness? Personally I wish they'd spend more time getting the spectrum right. The fact manufacturers like Lee have to bring out a special range of gels that look wrong to the eye, but right on the LEDs still says to me that LEDs are not quite right ....yet!
 
To all above... More excellent observations!
Being old guard I also gravitate to older tungsten workhorses, but I do this because I cannot yet get the same quality of light at the ebay price from LED stuff.
In defense of the LED light makers, there are some that are worth the price and that have the intelligence to build for updatability. Given that the LED array,less PCB and power typically costs between $5.00 and $10.00 to manufacture, there are some companies out there that 'get it'.
Cineroid - I have the kit that comes with tungsten + daylight modules. The latest version in remote controllable and sure, this is only an ENG interview light but I've adapted it to potentially be an off camera main as well. Very much worth the money as you really cannot duplicate the feature set DIY. Learn more at http://cineroid.com/
Lupine Lights. The silly thing is that these are bicycling light. The not so silly thing is that I modify them for video use and the LED emitter panels are and have been upgraded twice. Kudos for Lupine Lights.
So that is for emitter panel updatability.
The rest of the companies that ask you to replace the whole fixture... DON'T get it.
And be aware, even though the raw materials are cheap, without knowledge and access to premium binn'd emitters, you'll not get the CRI or color temp you want if you DIY.
Focusable fixtures are obviously here and will soon proliferate as camera sensors become more and more sensitive ( requiring less supplemental illumination). But they are a bit overpriced for now. I'd rather retrofit older ellipsoidals with LED or better yet, HID bulbs/ballasts.
Keep in mind that retail prices reflect top budgets and the pro gear is targeting the hollywood budget, not yours or mine.
 
paulears said:
The second hand market for old LED lights is just not there. My two year old LED fixtures are like glow worms compared to the new ones. I cannot even replace the old ones when they die - which being made cheaply in China with low quality control, they seem to do regularly. A brand new one, with the same make, model and spec looks entirely different light wise. Buy a tungsten source and expect many years useful service. Buy a state of the art LED, and by next year, nobody will even recognise it!
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Humn. You've given me an idea. First. There is no such thing as NO secondary market. That's because if you get the bright idea to retrofit or repair, the secondary market blossoms. I'll spare you the lecture.If the fixture has screws, that afford accessibility to the led panel, then upgrades are typically a soldering iron away. Integrated panels/PCB require the whole panel to be replaced, also a soldering iron away.PCB's cost about $.50 !! So what we are really talking about is deliberate redundancy on the part of the manufacturers. Send me your lights if they have those 4 screws holding them together ;)
 
Wow, thanks to all the thoughtful responses!


@wbrock001: "But if [Zylight] could get the price lower and still meet their quality, I bet they'd sell a lot more of them...perhaps that isn't their business model."

We would LOVE to sell our lights at half their current price, but that's not economically possible. We're not tyrying to ration these things, our business model is to put a Zylight in every lighting kit out there!


@Zephyrnoid: "In defense of the LED light makers, there are some that are worth the price and that have the intelligence to build for updatability."
@legrevedotcom: "That is also very much worth noticing. Now that Zylight has joined in, can you elaborate if you offer the same thing in your product?"

The LED module in the F8 is indeed upgradeable. It's actually eight screws, not four, but we think the extra effort would be worth it when the time comes.


@David W. Jones (via Patryk_Rebisz): "Specialty Light? It would be interesting for Jim & Charlie to chime in on where they see this light being used."

Only on Mars rovers and within the Vatican, please. Seriously, take the F8 in the field as a small HMI replacement because of its battery operation and bright output, without the need for a cumbersome ballast or AC. A small A/B 90W Dionic will run the F8 for an hour at full brightness, plenty of time for a stand-up with talent (the Arri L7 draws 220 watts with no battery option). IP54 allows use in rain & snow, conditions ENG crews find themselves in every day. Its thin form factor makes packing a breeze and avoiding baggage fees is easy with its 9.9lb weight (just weighed a pre-production model yesterday - shaved 2 lbs. off the NAB prototype!).


@wbrock001: "Were the photometrics taken with the softbox on?"

Nope, the photometrics are for the F8 by itself. And I'm pretty certain that other folks are measuring using the same metric.


@Zephyrnoid: "LED for video is mostly egregious markup over wholesale cost and partly the cost of patent lawyers."

Egregious? Most definitely for the panels & clones. But for us independant manufacturers who are actually innovating, engineering, and improving the art (think Zylight, Gekko, Nila) our profit margin is mediocre at best. Right now we're in it for the passion, not the money.


@paulears: "The only tricky point is the housing"

Partly true, this is why it's important to have an upgradeable fixture. Much of the light's original cost is engineering, tooling, machining, and assembly labor (don't forget employee benefits). I truly think purchasing a 2x brighter LED upgrade in a couple years for 10% of the original fixture cost is better than tossing the whole fixture away.


@paulears: "but in many cases, you could hold up the LED circuit board with fishing line and it would be just as effective as a light source. LEDs have nothing special in them APART form the LEDs."

Ok, now I'm just getting mad.


@Zephyrnoid: "In defense of the LED light makers, there are some that are worth the price and that have the intelligence to build for updatability. Given that the LED array,less PCB and power typically costs between $5.00 and $10.00 to manufacture, there are some companies out there that 'get it'."

Ok, I'll show some of our cards here: The LEDs in the Z90 cost us over $70, and there are over $320 of LEDs alone in the IS3. That's our COST before any markup or the other charges listed above. These aren't cheap "SuperBright" eBay LEDs we're talking about. There's a big difference between the $5 worth of LEDs in a panel-style light and the powerful, highly engineered modules that you see in high-end products.


@Zephyrnoid: "PCB's cost about $.50 !!"

The PCB assemblies (parts too, remember?) are between $150-$200 alone for quality USA-made lead-free assemblies that will stand the test of time. Add the cost of metal-core construction (MCPCB, necessary for proper heat transfer) and you're talking big bucks. For comparison, a small, outsourced, single-sided PCBA like you'd find in a Micro knockoff probably costs under $7 (including the LEDs!).


@Bern Caughey: "Great looking design! Love how compact it is."

Thank you!


The bottom line is that an honest company will give you what you pay for, and more. Like personally answering your questions. On a Saturday morning.


Thanks,


- Jim & Charlie from Zylight
 
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Zylight said:
@Zephyrnoid: "LED for video is mostly egregious markup over wholesale cost and partly the cost of patent lawyers."

Egregious? Most definitely for the panels & clones. But for us independant manufacturers who are actually innovating, engineering, and improving the art (think Zylight, Gekko, Nila) our profit margin is mediocre at best. Right now we're in it for the passion, not the money.
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Zylight,

Define "panels" and "clones". This should be interesting. I think you may find you're opening a can of worms by any definition of that. But if you really want to get into it, go ahead.

I also think that deflecting the original question asked about your product away from yourself and onto your competitors is really lame. The question was why your product and some other similarly priced ones are so expensive. You have no idea what anyone else's cost is except your own. So take ownership of questions asked of you and answer them in relation to your business, not that of others. Other's may take issue with your answering for them or misleading about their products.
 
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Richard, site sponsor or not, I think it's in poor taste for you to call out the Zylight folks like this. Some of us still remember your early DIY lights on painters poles. How would you like other manufactures to call you out?
 
DendriteStudios said:
Of all the led options the zylight definitely looks to be an innovative design for users. I love how small it packs up.
Have you guys looked into lep (plasma) lighting technology?
Would be amazing to have a similar style small, focusable fresnel light with the higher output of plasma (actually competes with hmi).
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Thanks Zylight for answering questions. You missed mine further up though. Mind giving your thoughts on lep lights and if you are looking at bringing that technology to an f8 style lamp? Basically the higher output over led is intriguing.
Your current f8 light looks amazing. The design is top notch for all levels of production. Congrats.
 
@Cool Lights: "Define "panels" and "clones". This should be interesting. I think you may find you're opening a can of worms by any definition of that. But if you really want to get into it, go ahead."

Hi Richard. With all due respect I think we all know what I meant: A LitePanels-esqe fixture. However, I believe I was mistaken to include clone manufacturers in the 'egregious markup' catagory. Your instruments are indeed affordable and you are an order of magnitude closer to giving customers what they pay for.


@Cool Lights: "I also think that deflecting the original question asked about your product away from yourself and onto your competitors is really lame. The question was why your product and some other similarly priced ones are so expensive."

Actually I did a pretty thorough job at answering the original question:
"...that's not economically possible." In other words our lighting instruments are costly to produce, especially since our instruments incorporate DMX, wireless control, OLED displays, metal-core PCBs, and custom housings from purpose-built extrusions and molds.
"...our profit margin is mediocre at best." Trust me, we're not living the high life or driving fancy cars (unless you dig a '97 Impreza).
"The LEDs in the Z90 cost us over $70, and there are over $320 of LEDs alone in the IS3." Those are hard numbers. Care to share yours?


@Cool Lights: "You have no idea what anyone else's cost is except your own."

After 25 years of designing consumer electronics and military hardware we actually do know. It's not rocket science.


@DendriteStudios: "Thanks Zylight for answering questions. You missed mine further up though. Mind giving your thoughts on lep lights and if you are looking at bringing that technology to an f8 style lamp?"

We're working on a bunch of directions and all I can say is that no technology is off the table right now. Even some stuff you haven't heard of yet.


Thanks again for the thoughtful feedback,


- Jim (& Charlie) from Zylight
 
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Hey Jim,
thanks for your open and detailed responses!
May I ask you directly in which way rental vs. buying is looked upon in your pricing strategy? Or does it matter at all, who buys your fixtures? Thanks!
 
@Sparticus: Our 'pricing strategy' is pretty simple: Take how much it costs to build the gizmo, add the costs of keeping the lights on and our employees happy, add a little bit more so we can someday send our kids to college, then round to a number that looks like we actually gave it some thought. If any one of us had a business degree maybe the formula would be different.

Most importantly, keep in mind that our resellers need their cut too. If you've ever walked in to your local dealer to chat about the latest equipment keep in mind they have the same operating expenses I've outlined above. Our dealers pay us a hefty percentage less than retail for each light. When all is said and done the price is what it needs to be to keep this ball rolling.

Thanks,

- Jim (just me because Charlie is on the flight to IBC) from Zylight
 
Hey. I missed a lot of the in-between posts. Just to reiterate. The semiconductor world was caught off guard by storm in 2004, when flashlight makers started experimenting, in skunkworks, with LED's versus incandescent bulbs. I was involved in some projects and while we got our R&D material free the actual wholesale on the diodes was dirt cheap. Still is. It's the PCB (design ) and enclosure + advertising that costs really.
Personally, I'd like to have a chat with some Government types as I believe that the LED business ought to be regulated as the DOE has a long term interest in seeing EVERYONE make an affordable switch. But I digress.
I mean to say that the bloody patents are the bottleneck! Eventually, LED based fixtures will become dirt cheap as the Patents on a lot of them and the end products, expire (20 years)
 
The Arri L-7 claims a CRI > 90.

Jim, what's the F8's? Did I miss it on the Photometrics?

And all other things being equal (which, of course, they never are...) I like the F8's low profile, flat design.
 
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