Zoom H4n with Rode NTG2 works fine, or does it?

A

Ashton Lamont

Active member
There are posts sprinkled around this and other forums where users of the Zoom H4n with the Rode NTG2 shotgun mic have reported problems with the levels from the Rode being very low, unusably low it would appear in some cases. I have not experienced this but then I don't use the NTG2 all that much.

So today I decided to check this. I set up a Zoom H4n on 4CH, which enables it to record in stereo via its two inbuild mics (which I set to 90 degrees rather than 120 degrees to keep the pickup pattern as narrow as possible), plus to record via either of the two XLR sockets using the NTG2. I set the levels for all sources to an identical value. I didn't have auto anything. I did not use phantom power but rather an AA battery in the NTG2. I recorded a few seconds of a radio broadcast from a distance of 1.5 metres - which is a common distance for event work even if it is desirable to get closer.

I then brought the files into Vegas Pro to examine the waveforms. In the screengrab below the top track is the Zoom's mics (in stereo) and the bottom track is the NTG2's track (in mono of course).

The waveforms are virtually identical.

Am I missing something in my methodology? My ears tell me its fine. Is there an elephant trap waiting for me? Thanks.

Pete

p.s. on posting this my screengrab has been shrunk so its not so easy to see. You can view the original jpg here:
http://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/images/dwf/audio-test-003.jpg

audio-test-003.jpg
 
Hello Pete,

I also have read from other users that they have had issues with level being too low. I tested this out too last night at a friends and found this just isn't true in my case. I also used a AA battery, but that couldn't be the issue. I'd love to hear what others mean by the levels being too low to use.

Cheers,

Mitch
 
I once had the opportunity to plug a NTG2 directly into an H4n to see if I would have a problem getting a level. I plugged the NTG2 in, adjusted the gain, got a good level and recorded a few seconds of audio. I don't recall if the NTG2 had a battery or not, but I think it didn't and that I used phantom power from the H4n to power the mic.

Anyhow, the only reason I did this was that I had heard people say in forums there was an incompatibility between these two popular pieces of equipment. However, from what I could tell, it seems like the problem is user error - not the gear.

Keep in mind that I only had the opportunity to try this once. Who knows, maybe there are certain conditions where problems arise. But, from what I could tell, it seemed like they worked together like any other microphone and recorder should.
 
So, perhaps the problems arise only when using Phantom Power? It seems everyone here with good results used an AA battery in their NTG-2.
 
Keep in mind that the NTG-2 loses 6db of sensitivity when operating on battery. That is NOT good for your signal to noise ratio. In a pinch if you have no phantom or you didn't bring batteries to a shoot, that's when as a last resort you use the mic with a battery.
 
I was curious about that so I tried it with Phantom and it worked perfectly fine. Though I still won't ever use the zoom H4n, it just sounds bad imo.
 
I wrapped on my trailer yesterday. I shot at a very loud airfield which I didn't audition for audio. It looked so good visually (shooters porn), so I chose the location. Even as I monitored sound I noticed a hiss - possibly from nearby air-conditioners. I just want to make sure I'm not doing anything wrong. I've shot with this set up before - up in the mountains though, it was super quiet, not like this.

Anyway, I plug this straight into the AF100 phantom powered because I don't have any battery in the mic itself, but there's a recessed switch with two white markings on the mic, one is straight, the other curved. I have this on the straight marking. Is that correct or does it even matter where the switch is - i.e. does the mic automatically pick up the power source?
 
The curved marking is probably the symbol for low cut. That cuts out the low end to remove low rumble from wind or handling noise.
 
Thanks Chadfish, that's correct, I googled it, too as I awaited. High pass filter at 80Mhz to cut out unwanted low end noise.
 
I've never used the H4n with an NTG-2, but from what I understand it's not really a problem with the level being too low, but that the preamp on the H4n is too noisy for the low output of the NTG-2. The H4n has a preamp noise of -107dBu (http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm) which is really quite bad, and the NTG2 has 18dBA self-noise and an output of 15mV (not that unusual), which gives a comparable value of -110dBu (http://www.rane.com/note148.html). This means that the preamp is about 3dB noisier than the mic itself, which makes this combination very unsuitable for quiet recordings. For moderate or loud levels, it does fine.
 
I had removed the JPG from my site over a year ago thinking that it was of no further interest but this thread seems to still generate a lot of click throughs, so I have reuploaded it. Original link should now work.

Pete
 
I've had a lot of issues with the H4N and the NGT2 when attempting to record dialogue. I ultimately think it comes down to what your using it for. Quiet dialogue is probably not a good move witht he signal to noise issues. Louder foley/effects pick-up or events (which I personally think are loud by their nature may be a great idea given the cost.

One thing I have found is that the Tascam DR-40 has been better to work with and costs less than the H4N. Some of the same issues still apply but I would put the Tascam ahead of the Zoom at this point.
 
Well I had two H4ns and an NTG 2 in my kit for a couple years. I ended up selling both Zooms because of the gain issue. The NGT 2 is definitely a low out put mic. For normal dialog I had to have the gain up in the 80+ range on the Zoom to get close to decent levels. Of course I got lots of noise up that high. One thing that helps on the H4n is not to use a mono mix down, so single input and one track recording. You get about an extra 6db gain. I ended up getting a Tascam DR 40 which was an improvement, and then I got a DR 100 II and even better, gain is around 5 on the DR 100II with the NTG 2. I started with a Marantz 660 which only needed about 3-4 with the NTG 2, but it had a lot of hiss and the interface was a pain. I have a SD Mix Pre now so that drives the NTG 2 pretty well. My next move will be to upgrade the NTG 2.
 
Your comparison is not a good one. The mics on the H4n are horrible too. So comparing 2 poor input sources and saying it's all good.......is not really knowing the problem. I have had the chance to compare a NTG2 with my "cheap" ME63.......and the ME has at least 8-10 dB more gain. And I run a mixer in front of an H4n. I had to apply a lot of pre to match the NTG to my 63......and that was at the mixer. So please don't tell people it's not a low output mic and just fine with the H4n.

As to your waveforms........just showing a waveform can be deceiving. You cannot see the noise floor clearly.....you cannot accurately gauge the output levels...... And if it is not a usable signal when you increase the gain in post to get it to a -12db level (on a calibrated system) because of hiss.......then what's the use of arguing the point? What's the peak to peak in your waveforms? That could very well be less than 6 dB in your "waveform" analysis. What's the output at your highest peak? Noticed your meters weren't running (so no one knows where the levels are). What scale are you using?

You will not get usable primary audio with the H4n/NTG combo without a pre or mixer between the 2.

Might have well posted a camera color histograph and talked about how the focus of camera A was better than Camera B.
 
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Really is anyone is doing multiple jobs using an H4N and any mic, you really should have a Preamp. It's an essential part of any sound kit. Get the MixPre-D, or a used MixPre. It must be done, otherwise you are screwing your clients.
 
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