Zeiss Super Speeds or Compact Primes?

Grug

Grug

Veteran
​Hi guys,

I've got an over-the-top crime caper coming up that I'll be shooting on Alexa, and production has two lens options available: a set of MkI Super Speeds, and a set of Compact Primes.


Now I'm very familiar with the CP.2s and know and love the look they put out, I haven't personally used super speeds before though, so small, T/1.3 and triangular bokeh is about all know of them.


So I was wondering if anyone could share some thoughts on how the two sets compare?


Cheers
 
Well they certainly give two very different looks. Which works best for you?

Mechanically and optically, the CP.2's will perform much better all around. The MkIII's wide open are softer than stopped down, but not too bad; worth the trade off for speed, I guess. The MkI's wide open will be unusabley soft. The world looks like a diffusion 2 filter was thrown on. I've used the Mk'1's quite a bit and I absolutely think they are the worst performing professional lens wide open I've ever used. In fact, I used to camera assist on some indie features that exclussively used these lenses and the DP would consistantly ask me to check focus while framing up a shot at wide open and I would say "it is focused" and he'd grab the wheel and try to find focus, only to land back where I was. Nobody believes me until they really look at it. Mk1's wide open is like someone spit on the front of the lens! lol. It only gets good after a T/2.5 and over, IMO. T/2 is ok, but still considerably softer than when stopped down or compared to fast modern lenses.

The early superspeed sets also have issues with clip on MB's. If you apply pressure to the front of the lens, the focus ring binds up and is very difficult to rotate. To solve this, we would have to apply the most minimal pressure to the Clip On MB to the lens, meaning the MB was always an inch of pressure away from falling off the front of the lens and the lens was always stiff. What a cluster f#@k for the assistant. The best thing to do is completely avoid Clip-Ons with SuperSpeeds. I don't recall which series this stops at, so I'd be weary with any of them. I do know this is a Mk 1 issue for sure.

The CP.2's have more advantages all around but they aren't vintage and that goes a long way for some DP's when setting a look of a film.


Also, if you were wanting speed, maybe see if they can give you the newer 'SuperSpeed' CP.2's, which is a set of three mid range lenses in the CP.2 set that can open up very wide, I believe to a T/1.4 or T/1.5. Those would be better than Mk'1's IMO.
But again, if you want vintage looking lenses, you should test both sets very thoroughly! It's a big decision. :)
 
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I have used both the MkI's and the ZF.2s (same optics as CP.2) within the same film and aside from the difference in bokeh they intercut seamlessly, so to me that says you could go either way an be fine, probably just more on preference and if you need the faster apertures. Here is the trailer to the film I used them together and you can decide for yourself about look and feel.

 
I too own both sets as well as many others. I find the Super Speeds to mechanically and optically inferior to the CP2's.
 
I'll also add, when we rent the Alexa, many times we get a package deal including a pair of Optimo zooms which allow us to move rather quickly.
 
Thanks guys, really appreciate the info.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
you should test both sets very thoroughly! It's a big decision. :)
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That would be my preference (and what I've asked for in our week of pre-pro) but at the moment I'm being told I won't be able to get my hands on either the camera or lenses until the evening before we shoot :/

A vintage/rough-around-the-edges look would probably suit the project, I just wish I had more time with them beforehand to nail down the look I want more.
 
martinwhittier said:
I have used both the MkI's and the ZF.2s (same optics as CP.2) within the same film and aside from the difference in bokeh they intercut seamlessly, so to me that says you could go either way an be fine, probably just more on preference and if you need the faster apertures....
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I have to honestly say that my eye is very keen and discerning, as most people in our industry are, and I can tell surely the difference in quality. The CP.2's, among many things, will have much more advanced lens coatings. This mostly means the lens will be less prone to 'milking'/veiling flares and thus more contrasty in most situations.


Again, at a T/2 and below, you are in a VERY discernible territory of clarity with Mk.I's. They milk, get soft, they fall apart wide open. If you like this, this can be a very unique look and could be used to your advantage. If not, you better stay away from below a T/2 when shooting. That said, CP.2's have three lenses that are deemed the new 'SuperSpeeds' as they are CP.2's that open to a 1.5 I believe. If you want speed, you can look at those.

I'm not trying to persuade you from Super Speeds. If you want a more vintage lens look, they are certainly a good choice (optically) over CP.2's. Mechanically, the older SSmI's are not better in any way except for maybe size, but with CP.2's being pretty small and light themselves, it's not much of an issue.

Although both lens sets are pretty decent, they are far from the same lenses. (There is literally between three or four decades between when the two sets were designed and manufactured, the MkI's being in the late 70's or early 80's at the very latest. The SSmII's came out in 1983/4, which makes the Mk.I's older than I am.)



That would be my preference (and what I've asked for in our week of pre-pro) but at the moment I'm being told I won't be able to get my hands on either the camera or lenses until the evening before we shoot :/

A vintage/rough-around-the-edges look would probably suit the project, I just wish I had more time with them beforehand to nail down the look I want more.
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Almost all rental houses are fine with DP's coming into the shop before hand and testing/examining different cameras and lenses. You may not get the full service camera testing that big DP's get (testing wardrobe, makeup, lighting, etc) before a film, but you could likely ask that you have a private prep room or something where you can set up a quick still life/ charts/ stress test (like flaring the lens, bright sources in frame, sharpness in corners, uneven field illumination testing, etc) and see for yourself.

That is a very common request and as long as the lenses or camera is not on rental at the time, should not be an issue if you don't take any equipment off the property.

I know a ton of rental houses out here, and I can't think of one that would deny this request if you do the test in their shop and the gear is not out on rental.

Let me know how it goes!
 
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Unfortunately, it's a masters degree graduating project, so the equipment belongs to the university and is subject to their students' bookings. If it were a rental house, it wouldn't be a problem.
 
Well so much for all that fuss and bother, turned out the Superspeed Kit was actually a set of the new CP.2 Superspeeds!

Still, can't really complain, they got the job done:

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