Zacuto Revenge Shootout Part 3

[morgan_moore]

Steve. A very honest response - thank you.

I understand that you are not a shooter for 12 years, or the tester, but I think overall culturally this skews the overall feel of the programme, questions etc

As for Bruce and Jimmy, I wonder about 'extensive raw experience', I think anyone in the film industry has minimal experience of raw, simply because AFAIK raw motion has only been around for 3 or so years, and anyone how claims expertise in three years is probably stretching it

The thing about raw is the extensive relationship between shoot choices and post that are minimally explored by people who work 'inside' the chain of production passing post to a house that was not in on the shoot/light choices - I guess the higher up the chain one gets, the more extracted one becomes

As for directors and luts - directors need to expand their vision unless there are significant advances in monitoring tech, you might be interested to read this that I wrote.. with your background in (I guess) a dark room it may make some sense..

http://www.dslr4real.tv/index.php?option=com_zoo&task=item&item_id=108&Itemid=1

S

 

[morgan_moore]

Nobody is disagreeing with you Morgan. Having an Alexa/RED/F65 is great if the budget can afford it and it's right for the project. I'm not jumping out of a humvee in a war zone with an Alexa on my shoulder. But it's nice to have great gear if it's available for all the reasons you mentioned. That's not the point of the Revenge shootout. The point is if you are a kid who has very little money and a lot of talent has the extra time to put into both production and post production using his lower end camera, how might it look in comparison. You never know--if his story is compelling enough, directed, edited and told well. I don't think Hollywood would give a crap if it was shot on a GH2 or an Alexa. All they care about is selling tickets. That's why they call it the film BUSINESS.

But you are not seeing it from the budget film-makers POV... An Slog F3 may be cheaper than an FS100 plus the Joker 400 (s) required to fill it up in a high contrast situation

Thats a real question Im asking myself now, maybe invest in HMI or swap camera, for the price of 3 hmi I could go scarlet and stick with my current tungsten/flouro package (maybe)

As for an alexa .. or more realistically a BMD or S2k or Ikonostop.. thats exactly what you want in a war zone where you wont have control of light and may not have time to mince about with a light meter an may be working in various colour tempertures. Shooting RAW will give you the latitude in post to get the footage

If I were you (and Im thinking of it my self) I would seriously investigate the S2k, or Ikonostop, as a deep(ish) DOF ENG camera I reckon it would blow the socks off whatever HVX you are using, maybe investigate shooting scarlet at crop 2k

Both cams have amazing S16 zooms and a DOF look that I think wold float your boat.

As for the budget film-maker.. shade is king

 

[morgan_moore]

Ive stepped back and thought about this.

Steve, Bruce and the gang are not stupid, they are experienced professionals in various fields.
I think there is a massive cultural difference between someone like myself who, like Deakins and many others, started in B+W documentary stills photography, hunters of light, compared to those who are in cinema (filmschool) culture, like Bruce?, or 2000s ENG culture like Steve.

I realise that they, in the filmschool culture, or crappy ENG camera culture*, usually light from black.. I mean check out Steves interviews.

I however, where possible. light from a daylight or practical base.

This puts entirely different stresses on a camera (in having to fight the sun) and in the cost of lighting in that 90% of the time I need a daylight source which ramps costs right up into HMI terrotitory or due to correction filters meaning I need fusebox melting amounts of tungsten to get a soft source or light a large space when windows and daylight are included in the shot

This makes the camera DR/vs fill lighting cost a much stronger equation to a shooter of my style than those who shoot from black, like Steve or Bruce

I wont comment on which I prefer, black or natural, because that is artistic, and there is no right in art, I am just saying that I now see some sense in the test criteria given the culture of the testers..

S

* im not saying todays ENG cameras are crappy - far from it - Im saying that 2000s ENG cams on SD were crappy when people like Steve were learning their shooting culture such cameras needed brutal lighting like (IMO) dismal three point, just to show a picture in the tiny DR, especially as Steves generation were probably taught by people who learned to light for B+W - where three point is the mutts nuts

 

[b_k]

Frank, this article is simply amazing. I felt like he read my thoughts about the RGCSO. I agree with him for 100%.I wanted to write similar article here at dvxuser but I didn't, just because I knew how much hate I would get. I really liked the fact that Art Adams was more confident about expressing his opinion, even though (like me) he already knew that he would get a lot of hate emails and comments. Also, that part when he said: "The danger is that a producer or director is going to hear Francis Ford Coppola’s quote about the GH2 looking the best and they’re going to go out and buy a GH2 that one of us is going to have to use to shoot their next movie/feature/TV series" now believe me or not but I know a guy who bought GH2 (none filmmaker, just a want to be guy) right after the second part of the RGCSO and he tried to convince his friends that people use GH2 in the Hollywood. Well and I know that there will be more people like him. Also in the part two, I liked what Steven Poster said, that "this staff is really dangerous and it affects everyone in this room" and it's true but it affects not only the people in that room but everyone of us who put the food on the table and pay bills by what we doing.

According to some people, it's not about the camera, it's about the story told (or not...maybe its just an emotion from a boring ass art film ). And if it is, what's with the FUD? Is it too much to deal with uninitiated producers/directors?

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

As for an alexa .. or more realistically a BMD or S2k or Ikonostop.. thats exactly what you want in a war zone where you wont have control of light and may not have time to mince about with a light meter an may be working in various colour tempertures. Shooting RAW will give you the latitude in post to get the footage

If I were you (and Im thinking of it my self) I would seriously investigate the S2k, or Ikonostop, as a deep(ish) DOF ENG camera I reckon it would blow the socks off whatever HVX you are using, maybe investigate shooting scarlet at crop 2k

Both cams have amazing S16 zooms and a DOF look that I think wold float your boat.

As for the budget film-maker.. shade is king

And these cameras are to be had at about $800 for the 'body'... were it true... perhaps 'we' would not be having this discussion at all...

I can assure you... the lowly GH-1/2 is better than a clockwork orange windup Bolex, that was the 'starter' camera in my youth. In fact I think one had to get up to a motordriving, crystal synced camera at 'incredible' entry prices to get anything like the GH-1/2... oh... and to get sound... a Nagra was required... additional costs...

 

[Mitch Gross]

I want to say that I respect Steve and his entire team a great deal. And I respect that he is here discussing this on a public forum. I honestly believe that Steve, Jens, Bruce and everyone involved had the best of intentions. But I disagree with the concept and methodology both of the testing done and the presentation thereafter.

Before joining AbelCine I was a DP for nearly 20 years. Hundred of shorts, commercials, music videos, docs, industrials, etc. Twenty-four features. 16mm, 35mm, Hi-8, 3/4" Umatic, Beta, 2/3", HDCAM, RED, Phantom, lots of other stuff. I've dealt with post back in the day when I used a gang sync and a Moviola upright to a Steenbeck, a Kem (I loved the Kem), Edit Droid, D-Vision, Media Composer, Lightworks, RMB-450 (there's a memory!), Final Cut, Premiere, Video Vegas, Grass Valley, Rank Y-Fronts, Spirit, DaVinci, Hazeltine, IP & IN, neg. cut matchback, Scratch, Resolve, Harry, Inferno, Baselight, Codex, and okay I'll stop now. I've done a bunch of stuff high and low. Since joining AbelCine I've been lucky to have a seat in the forefront of some pretty exciting Digital Cinema advances. It was our company that helped Vision Research bring the Phantom cameras to market, which were among the earliest RAW cameras really available to the production world (the first were the Dalsa Origin and the ARRI D20). I was pretty involved in that and learned a lot from some damn smart people. Some people think I'm anti-RED but it's not true and I've done a lot with those cameras. I consulted with Sony on the feature set of the F3 and FS100. I was instrumental in involving AbelCine with the Alexa before it came to market (we're the only company besides ARRI who sells it). I also know lighting and lenses, and my dog's name is Lulu. Hope I have a bit of credibility with a few of you now.

Steve, I'm not going to get into a fight or a pissing match. Let's play a game of You Say/I Say, but the "You Says" encompasses both your statements and the statements of others that you chose to feature in your presentation. You say it's about telling a story. I say yes of course, but we know that already so let's move on. You say that a good DP can make any camera any camera sing. I say that a good DP will have to struggle to make some cameras work where others are more appropriate, and that an artist should choose his brush and a carpenter choose his hammer. You say that your presentation is really more for indy filmmakers not technical people (aka "pixel peepers"). I say that the presentation does not state this and that it is presented in a way that makes it appear to be authoritative on a technical level. You say here in this forum that of course there is a difference with the more expensive cameras but indy filmmakers must use the camera they can afford. I say that the presentation implies if not outright states that there is little to no difference between most of the cameras and that the indy filmmakers are actually given a disservice in that they will have to spend more on lighting or post with low cost cameras in order to achieve what the more expensive models do with minimal effort.

I could go on. The point is that the Shootout starts and ends with a premise that there is little to no difference between these cameras and what really matters is the talent of the DP and the skills of the crew. I do not negate the work of these people. I AM one of these people. But I also know it take a lot longer to write War & Peace with a quill than with a word processor. It can be done but does it really make the most sense to do it that way. And there are certain situations where one camera will outperform the others no matter what efforts the DP makes, so that camera is then the most appropriate to the task at hand. (BTW, in some cases that camera would be the iPhone). I feel that the choices made in the ways the tests were conducted and then the ways in which they were presented in your three-part series and accompanying support materials were - perhaps subconsciously or inadvertently - in support of this supposition that there is little difference between the cameras.

No matter who you intend the presentation to be for it will spread. I admire that you have taken this on year after year and you have received several awards and lots of viewership from it. But I know what the repurcussions have been in the past from such tests with my clients and many others. A producer will hear "there's not much difference between the cameras" and then dictate to the DP a cheap lower- grade camera than what the project may really need. I see this happen every day. I also see a lot of indy filmmakers come into the shop with bits of half-knowledge and tigbits culled from the internet but misinterpreted, and now the guy wants to shoot a complicated project on a camera that is really not up to the task at hand. I could go on with many examples but suffice to say that I see it every single day. This is not about sticking my nose up in a huff and stating that nothing but the best will do. My company deals in these lower level cameras every day and I'm incredibly impressed with what they are capable of capturing. But I also know that each and every camera has its strong points and its weak points. They are very much NOT the same, and to make it appear that they are in improper. At least in my book.

Respectfully,

 

[morgan_moore]

So lets have a look at the qualifications of these people to test these cameras, the cheap ones..

"Bruce, .. and Robert Primes conducted the latest ASC producers guild S35 camera test with just 4 of the top end cameras" (ie none of the cheap ones)
Bruce current work is shot in none of the cheap ones; http://bruceloganfilm.com/CURRENT_DP.html

Steve does not use any of them he "don't like using S35 cameras" I guess therefore he has never used any them on a project

Mitch stopped being a DP before any of them were released, have joined Abel in 2006 http://blog.abelcine.com/bios/ so I guess has never shot a project on any of them

That their 'tests' have influence or credence I find somewhat in-credible, I can only blame my own stupidity for letting any of their output influence some of the $0000s I have spent on gear in the last years, its a shame because being a country boy I cannot get hands on the gear before purchase.. lesson learnt..

Go to a shop try it out for yourself and your needs, they may align with the testing rubrics of Bruce or Mitch, or they may not. I am sure their data is good BTW

My own belief is that an Alexa is a lot better than a GH2.. a lot lot lot lot better

S

 

[Fohdeesha]

People that have absolutely no idea what they're talking about questioning the credentials of people that have done more for this industry than they'll ever be able to fathom? Yup, looks like I've logged back into DVXUser.

You want to know the damage this test has done?

"I'm already getting emails from DP's (looks like five so far) saying that producers are choosing cameras based on this test, and choosing the wrong cameras because the DP's in the interviews say that all the cameras basically look the same"

There. There is the damage. I understand most of you run n gun by yourself with your own little camera, and this information presented in this way has no effect on you, but elsewhere, it has an absolutely horrible effect. If you're going to do a "test" like this, please hype the important information (the hugely extended lighting times for the cheaper cameras, the triple amount of grading layers, etc), as much as you hype "francis ford coppola loves the gh2! best camera ever!?"


I own a GH2, and the way this test was presented pisses even me off.

 

[cmlgeoff]

Changes

Changes

Nobody is disagreeing with you Morgan. Having an Alexa/RED/F65 is great if the budget can afford it and it's right for the project. I'm not jumping out of a humvee in a war zone with an Alexa on my shoulder. But it's nice to have great gear if it's available for all the reasons you mentioned. That's not the point of the Revenge shootout. The point is if you are a kid who has very little money and a lot of talent has the extra time to put into both production and post production using his lower end camera, how might it look in comparison. You never know--if his story is compelling enough, directed, edited and told well. I don't think Hollywood would give a crap if it was shot on a GH2 or an Alexa. All they care about is selling tickets. That's why they call it the film BUSINESS.

Whilst you may not jump out of a Humvee with an Alexa many of us did the equivalent with cameras bigger than the Alexa for many years.

My problem with the tests is that they are not realistic, the amount of time allowed for re-lighting and grading is just not real.

People have asked why these tests http://www.cinematography.net/HAnn2012.html don't include any lower cost cameras, the simple answer is that none of them can come remotely close to dealing with a real situation like this.

So if your tests are for amateurs and wannabes then fine but please don't try and tell people who work as cinematographers that they are in any way realistic.

I saw them projected at full res on a large screen and was impressed by what you did with the untouched comparisons.

Geoff

 

[morgan_moore]

http://www.cinematography.net/HAnn2012.html

Great test - Id love to see a GH in that!

Here we see that cultural difference, lighting from black, or managing daylight

To be fair on Steve/Bruce it not only amateurs who light from black, I guess the Death Star explosion was lit from black, certainly not an amateur undertaking.

S

 

[Fohdeesha]

"managing daylight" is not a cultural difference, it's what real life cinematographers do on a daily basis.

 

[morgan_moore]

That what I thought, but, ill put it down to cultural differences

 

[kvx]

In one fell swoop, Zacuto has lost nearly every DP I know United States-wide, and presumably the world.

You don't need to buy a new camera every three months, because it will not make you one bit a better filmmaker. Put your money into lights, mics and a good tripod.

... and Zacuto accessories?

No, you didn't say that, I did and I am obviously putting words into your mouth, but it does seem like the logical extension of that thought, doesn't it?

Lets put this all into proportion everybody:

In the end, Zacuto is not making this curiosity of a web series for charitable reasons at all, as they like all of us are a for profit individual/company. Does anybody doubt this? That the results, as "our friend steve" put it, would indicate that "many of these cameras can look similar in the right hands especially for TV. Should we pretend they don't."

You know why this doesn't surprise me in the least? Because if the results indicated a wild difference between the high end cameras and the lower end ones, less folks would buy the lower end ones. And when less folks buy the lower end cameras, less folks will also buy Zacuto products.

Could one person here at all consider that Zacuto would ever be stupid enough to think of sabotaging their source of income?

I think not.

To give an analogy, could anybody here see Barack Obama inviting Mitt Romney to the Democratic convention then give him equal and honest air time? Vice versa? Can we imagine apple inviting microsoft to give equal airtime at an apple event?

"many of these cameras can look similar in the right hands especially for TV. Should we pretend they don't." So just buy a T2i, a zacuto viewfinder, a zacuto handheld kit, a zacuto v-mount battery pack, a zacuto follow focus, and matte box.... ohhh my.

Suddenly my accessories have amounted to well more than my camera is worth. Making it really affordable for me as the entry level filmmaker?

Yet for some reason I still have hideous jello, moire, aliasing, my highlights are rubbish, i cant properly focus with a stills lens because the focal points shift every time i turn my camera on and off, the effective resolution is 20% less than HD, can't actually grade my footage cause there is not much to actually grade in 4:2:0, and my camera doesn't meet the minimum BBC 50mbit standard for broadcast.

I wish I saved up for a better camera instead, says the new filmmaker.

Look. In the end, every DP with talent can make any given camera shine. But a pebble can only shine as much as a pebble can shine. But a diamond, can be polished to be spectacular.

Talent counts. But so does the brush and canvas that is used, and no amount of obfuscation will ever change this fact.

70mm > 35mm > 16mm > Videotape

in much the same way that

Alexa > C300 > GH2

Fact.

 

[Dino]

I've been lurking about here and CML and taking it all in. I have respect for all involved in these threads and admire their passion. When I watched part 2 of Revenge I was hugely frustrated. "Visions of Light" and "Cinematographer Style" did a great job of communicating the language of visuals by DP's. The PGA Camera Assessment series, which I own a Blu Ray of and Zacuto's own previous efforts were much better camera comparisons. I have yet to watch part 3 of Revenge due to my aforementioned frustration, but I will.

I know Art Adams personally, as he is a client of mine and I've been around when he and Adam Wilt have done camera testing. I respect them both and Adam's camera reviews are some of the best around, IMO. The ProVideoCoalition registration/comments issue has existed long before Art's recent article/rant about the Zacuto series, just for the record.

As an owner of a small rental house, one could say I'm literally invested in the concept of differences in camera quality to make a living. Fair enough. I'm constantly asked by clients and on forums about the minutia of various cameras and try hard to keep up with it, however, as a working DP, I'm frustrated by how the role of DP has diminished in many producer/directors eyes. I've always told anyone who would listen that it's the person driving that counts. At the same time, when a DP owns a 7D and every single project they are hired to do somehow ends up being shot with it, that DP is doing a disservice to at least some of those projects, assuming there was a camera department budget for something of higher quality or more functionality. This is the new paradigm--the DP or the producer or craft services owns a DSLR or a seven year old palmcorder, so it's automatically the best camera for the project.

That is frustrating to someone like me who does see the differences in cameras, work flows, lensing and appreciates those who realize that no one camera can be best for all projects. I'm afraid that Revenge part 2 has done me and my clients no favors in that regard.

 

[Razz16mm]

And these cameras are to be had at about $800 for the 'body'... were it true... perhaps 'we' would not be having this discussion at all...

I can assure you... the lowly GH-1/2 is better than a clockwork orange windup Bolex, that was the 'starter' camera in my youth. In fact I think one had to get up to a motordriving, crystal synced camera at 'incredible' entry prices to get anything like the GH-1/2... oh... and to get sound... a Nagra was required... additional costs...

That may be true today, but that spring wind Bolex could produce image quality superior to any TV camera in 60's and most of the 70's.

 

[Postmaster]

In one fell swoop, Zacuto has lost nearly every DP I know United States-wide, and presumably the world.



... and Zacuto accessories?

No, you didn't say that, I did and I am obviously putting words into your mouth, but it does seem like the logical extension of that thought, doesn't it?

Lets put this all into proportion everybody:

In the end, Zacuto is not making this curiosity of a web series for charitable reasons at all, as they like all of us are a for profit individual/company. Does anybody doubt this? That the results, as "our friend steve" put it, would indicate that "many of these cameras can look similar in the right hands especially for TV. Should we pretend they don't."

You know why this doesn't surprise me in the least? Because if the results indicated a wild difference between the high end cameras and the lower end ones, less folks would buy the lower end ones. And when less folks buy the lower end cameras, less folks will also buy Zacuto products.

Could one person here at all consider that Zacuto would ever be stupid enough to think of sabotaging their source of income?

I think not.

To give an analogy, could anybody here see Barack Obama inviting Mitt Romney to the Democratic convention then give him equal and honest air time? Vice versa? Can we imagine apple inviting microsoft to give equal airtime at an apple event?

"many of these cameras can look similar in the right hands especially for TV. Should we pretend they don't." So just buy a T2i, a zacuto viewfinder, a zacuto handheld kit, a zacuto v-mount battery pack, a zacuto follow focus, and matte box.... ohhh my.

Suddenly my accessories have amounted to well more than my camera is worth. Making it really affordable for me as the entry level filmmaker?

Yet for some reason I still have hideous jello, moire, aliasing, my highlights are rubbish, i cant properly focus with a stills lens because the focal points shift every time i turn my camera on and off, the effective resolution is 20% less than HD, can't actually grade my footage cause there is not much to actually grade in 4:2:0, and my camera doesn't meet the minimum BBC 50mbit standard for broadcast.

I wish I saved up for a better camera instead, says the new filmmaker.

Look. In the end, every DP with talent can make any given camera shine. But a pebble can only shine as much as a pebble can shine. But a diamond, can be polished to be spectacular.

Talent counts. But so does the brush and canvas that is used, and no amount of obfuscation will ever change this fact.

70mm > 35mm > 16mm > Videotape

in much the same way that

Alexa > C300 > GH2

Fact.

Congratulations for the most incompetent but most arrogant first post I ever saw in here, including wildest conspiracy theories and crazy speculations.
Great way to make an entry.

 

[Harry Lime]

The only people I see with their panties in a knot over the whole shootout are people who seem to feel threatened financially. I guess I can understand that, but I'd also have to say get used to it. What was once a very contained, small, and exclusive market and skill set is expanding daily. You can't stop it with fear or flailing arms. Lots of people over on RedUser are freaking out because they can't charge as much for gear rentals anymore. Sorry, but that's just competition and evolution in action. It's healthy.

I welcome the opportunities all of the cameras in the shootout can bring to a production. I think at the end of the day if you can deliver something with a demand that people can afford, you will always have a viable business. But you better stay nimble.

Sorry, but this is not about 'fan boys' getting their panties in a knot, because their $50,000 dollar rig supposedly got bested or equalled by a camera that costs a fraction of that. That is the mentality of a dilettante, not a professional.

Mitch Gross hit the nail on the head.

"That last quote is the most dangerous one to me (there are others like it that follow, but the implications are similar). If all these cameras are really about the same and it really just comes down to the DP's skills, then cinematographers never have the right to ask for better or more appropriate equipment. The producer can say that a good DP should be able to make this cheap camera sing, and if you cannot then you must be a hack and I'll find someone better."

There are careers and reputations on the line here. If you are a DoP and get stuck shooting with a low-end prosumer camera and the client flips out, because there are technical problems with the footage or it doesn't look at good as an Alexa, YOU are the one who is going to get blamed and will have to defend himself against charges of incompetence for a long time to come.

That Coppola quote will come back to haunt many of us as an excuse by the uninformed to save money for a very long time to come. I have already had this argument with one person and I am having flashback all the way back to the introduction of miniDV, which some clowns were pitching that format to the studios as a replacement for film, because 'Blair Witch' was shot like that.

The revolution in digital cinema is a two edged sword. The drop in prices has made it possible for a lot of people to produce work they otherwise would have never had a remote chance of doing.

On the other hand every Jack and Jane out there with a Canon 5D suddenly claims to be a DoP, because they own a camera.

Guess what? Owning a stethoscope, doesn't make you a doctor.

And also as Mitch said, talent can only make up for the short comings of a tool to a certain extend. After that you are SOL. Literally.

I see this every day at work, when people tell me I don't need that $8000 copy of Nuke, because 'Hugo' was supposedly comped in After Effects.

 

[kvx]

Congratulations for the most incompetent but most arrogant first post I ever saw in here, including wildest conspiracy theories and crazy speculations.
Great way to make an entry.

Ah yes incompetent, and arrogant. You must be correct. I retract my statement fully.

Zacuto has done a wonderful job in promoting camera democracy, and are not biased at all any which way.

Good day.

 

[Mitch Gross]

Mitch stopped being a DP before any of them were released, have joined Abel in 2006 http://blog.abelcine.com/bios/ so I guess has never shot a project on any of them

Who says I stopped being a DP once I joined AbelCine? That's your assumption. Since joining AbelCine I certainly don't shoot as much and the work I do is definitely more geared to shorter projects, but I did take some time off to do a feature and I certainly have shot paid professional work on various cameras both high & low in the food chain.

Also, I will note that since joining AbelCine and being able to step back and analyze the tools rather tha only deal with what I had n front of me to get my work done on a given job, I can tell you that I now know vastly more than I did before. It's a great perspective to have, and I'd like to think that even though I'm not a day-in / day-out cinematographer anymore my 20+ years of doing so have given me the understanding of what the needs are in the real practical production world. I've shot micro budget work and multi-million dollar productions. I think I understand a bit of what's going on, and even the new tools I have used "in anger."

 

[Fohdeesha]

Ah yes incompetent, and arrogant. You must be correct. I retract my statement fully.

Zacuto has done a wonderful job in promoting camera democracy, and are not biased at all any which way.

Good day.

I warned you guys about trying to talk sense here